EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

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LostMeow
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EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by LostMeow » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:30 pm

In response to Jester's question here (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1903&start=40#p24023) I put down some thoughts about how places at EC 2018 and beyond might be allocated. (NB these are just my thoughts, not the collective work of the Board, who would have the ultimate say, I guess):

Current (old) system:
Tour rankings (used to be just Open div - ‘PowerStats’) used to award places, working down the list.

Problem(s) with current (old) system:
We now have BDGA tour rankings for Masters and Women as well as Open.
There are many more divisions in EC than we have divisions for.
People may be playing in a particular BDGA division but be eligible for a different division at EC.
BDGA divisions apply to previous year; people may have changed age category.

In short: current (old) system definitely not usable!

Short-term fix for 2016 EC:
Tour rankings used in conjunction with PDGA ratings, eligibility for particular divisions, weighed against predicted competitiveness.

Problem(s) with the short-term fix:
Players did not know what they were aiming for.
Perceived as non-transparent.

New system:
Will always require some judgement calls of some sort at the top level.

Principles:
Want to ‘reward’ attendance and good play on Tour.
Want a competitive team.
Want to promote development - in particular juniors and women.

Proposal:
Must have played at least 4 Tour events to be eligible. (May change if Tour structure changes)
Guaranteed top eligible player by PDGA rating to get spot in each division: Open, Masters, Grandmasters, Senior GM, Junior, Women. (6 places)
Further places awarded on a discretionary basis according to:

- Number of places available
- PDGA rating - perceived competitiveness in division
- Number of BDGA players competing for the place (e.g. lots of Open players in BDGA therefore should be more Open places available in EC team)
Tom
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Jester » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:17 pm

Excellent, Tom, thank you. Will digest when I can give it the attention it deserves.
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Trevor » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:27 am

These are just some thoughts on the subject.


Captain. The captain is chosen by the board led by the Competition director. Once a person has been a captain they could not be captain again for at least 2 (or 3?) cycles of European champs.

The Captain will have 2 ( or a percentage of places) wild card selections similar to Ryder cup. Emphasis should be on selecting Juniors. Wild cards can also be used for players who are playing exceptionally well in the current year. The wildcards would be solely the Captains choice but must be justified.

You can only compete in the Euros in a division you ranked in in the previous year on the BDGA tour (with the exception of when the BDGA does not offer a Euro division). So for instance Jester could not play Master division in this years Euros (sorry nothing personal) although he may be the top rated Master in the UK. I think this is more fair than allowing an Open player to play Masters when they haven't actually competed and won the BDGA Masters category. Obviously someone may lose out but if there is policy then everyone knows where they stand. The exception would be as a wild card selection.

All Players wishing to attend the Euros must declare their interest and committed availability at the end of the ranking year used for selection. A waiting list would then formed of available players who are willing and committed to competing.

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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Jester » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:07 pm

Thanks, Trev, for bumping this thread.

I think BDGA players hoping to go to Euros should be able to play on the domestic BDGA Tour in whatever division(s) they are eligible for, and that division choice should not have a bearing on their selection. For example, if I wanted to target representing GB in the Masters Division at a forthcoming Euros (and with no disrespect to any of my fellow Masters players) I might wish to play the preceding year in the BDGA Open Division in order to be pushed by the competition in that division. I hope that makes sense?

It's been stated more than once now that Euros is about the best BDGA players going to give the best showing internationally. That being the case I don't really see how we can look much beyond PDGA Player Ratings as the performance indicator (with some caveats as mentioned by Tom already such as the player in question having to have a minimum amount of DG activity to be up for consideration)

WRT to Euros Team Captain, I think your idea that it cannot be the same person year on year to be an excellent one. Prior to this year the Captain was merely a admin role taken on by a player who had already qualified for the Euros team (there is a big difference between 'Qualifying' and 'Selection'). The idea that the Euros Captain could have the power of executive decision making over who is 'Selected' for the Team, rather than assisting those who have 'Qualified', does not sit comfortably.
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Trevor » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:13 pm

All valid and considered points which I do not necessarily disagree with. It more a case or moving the debate along and making a decision on the criteria. Criteria that will last and be relevant into the future.
Jester wrote: I think BDGA players hoping to go to Euros should be able to play on the domestic BDGA Tour in whatever division(s) they are eligible for, and that division choice should not have a bearing on their selection. For example, if I wanted to target representing GB in the Masters Division at a forthcoming Euros (and with no disrespect to any of my fellow Masters players) I might wish to play the preceding year in the BDGA Open Division in order to be pushed by the competition in that division. I hope that makes sense?

It's been stated more than once now that Euros is about the best BDGA players going to give the best showing internationally. That being the case I don't really see how we can look much beyond PDGA Player Ratings as the performance indicator (with some caveats as mentioned by Tom already such as the player in question having to have a minimum amount of DG activity to be up for consideration).
There are two priorities as I see them. Have a competitive team at the Euros and reward BDGA tour participation. What division a person plays in in the BDGA is up to them within the rating based divisional structure (you and I and many juniors are this year examples of playing out of division) and thats fine . If there is a criteria in place as I initially suggested then everyone would know in advance their eligibility and could decide on their division accordingly - you make your choices... I may start another thread on divisions later.

Winning your division over a BDGA season should be rewarded with a place in the Euros. This recognizes and rewards domestic attendance and success. I think it unfair if someone was selected ahead of a BDGA divisional winner.

On reflection I agree that the captain having sole responsibility for picking players on a wild card basis is flawed. I would still suggest a facility for wild card picks as a set number or percentage of players. Wild cards could be used to select a player who is a very good masters player but who has competed domestically in the Open division or a junior player who has been playing in Advanced Am.

Again I would stress these are just ideas. As long as criteria are decided so we all know where we stand. the 2017 season which may decide eligibility for the 2018 Euros is not far away.

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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Jester » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:59 pm

Trevor wrote:Winning your division over a BDGA season should be rewarded with a place in the Euros. This recognizes and rewards domestic attendance and success. I think it unfair if someone was selected ahead of a BDGA divisional winner.
My feeling is that if someone is playing actively during the year (ie making a minimum number of Tours) they don't need to be actually playing in the BDGA division on Tour that they wish to represent in at Euros. If you applied your approach as a rule, what would happen to all the current Int Am and Open players who want to challenge for Junior, Womens or Grand Masters spots at Euros?
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Trevor » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:39 pm

Jester wrote: If you applied your approach as a rule, what would happen to all the current Int Am and Open players who want to challenge for Junior, Womens or Grand Masters spots at Euros?
Like I said with my approach everyone knows the criteria and can base their decision on what domestic division to play in based on that ( you make your choices). The only exception to this is where there is no equivalent BDGA division eg Grandmasters, then base it on rating.

I would like to see juniors playing juniors domestically. I asked one why he wasn't at QP and he said he was too good for juniors. I suggested that if all the juniors played that division it would be extremely competitive and good for the future. I also suggested he was a cocky wee &#¥!€.

The only issue I see with my criteria is when a players year of birth makes them ineligible to play an older division. If that player is playing extremely well then it would warrant a wild card.

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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Jester » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:21 pm

Trevor wrote:The only issue I see with my criteria is when a players year of birth makes them ineligible to play an older division. If that player is playing extremely well then it would warrant a wild card.
Yes, those exact circumstances happened to me last year and I missed out on the chance to play at Euros. While a wildcard would temporarily solve this, a more robust qualification structure should be implemented.

I don't agree we should say that if a BDGA Tour division exists then those wishing to try and play in that division at Euro must play in it in the preceding season. DOn;t get me wrong, I can see why you'd propose this, it's a clean and tidy cut off and it seems to make sense to say the divisional winner qualifies, but I don't think it works for our present divisional structure. Our Masters Division (as previously mentioned, no disrespect intended to our Masters players) is not at the same level as Euro Masters. For some Masters-eligible players currently playing in Open (as this is where they are competitive) spending a season in BDGA Masters division to 'qualify' could actually have a negative effect on their performance and not prepare them for Euros as a season in Open would.

In addition, given that presently Masters is the only division such a rule would apply to, it seems unfair to mandate those Masters with Euro aspirations have to play in that division while any Grandmasters, Women, Juniors etc could play in whatever BDGA division they choose to without affecting their Euro qualification. Especially seeing as the recent Tour trend is towards payouts in the Open division, meaning the best players and the strongest competition is focussed there.

It was repeatedly said during the recent Euros team debate that the euros team is the strongest we can send. I maintain for the above reasons that any qualification rule that could adversely affect this is not a rule that should be brought in.
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Trevor » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:28 pm

If the reward in playing in a division and winning that division was a gaurenteed Euro place would that increase the competitiveness of that division? Potentially yes. Specifically Masters related how far off is an extremely competitive division? Very close with the likes of Bruce and Chris OB entering the age group. So while I think there may be some validity in the master playing open to get the competetive edge argument right now, that argument will be unnecessary very soon.

As the sport in the UK grows (hopefully). Strength in depth in all divisions will occur and will produce competetive Euro players playing their division domestically. I think this is a robust and extremely clear method of team selection that is relevant for the future.

Women and juniors are both BDGA divisions not just Masters as you have suggested.

I wish this years team good luck and success and hope that once the tournament is over a set of criteria for 2018 AND beyond can be decided soon whether it includes some of my suggestions or not.

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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Jester » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:19 am

Trevor wrote:If the reward in playing in a division and winning that division was a gaurenteed Euro place would that increase the competitiveness of that division? Potentially yes.
Yes potentially it would, but IMHO there are bigger arguments against doing this at this point in time.

Trevor wrote:Specifically Masters related how far off is an extremely competitive division? Very close with the likes of Bruce and Chris OB entering the age group. So while I think there may be some validity in the master playing open to get the competetive edge argument right now, that argument will be unnecessary very soon.
It is a fact that some current Open players are already Masters eligible (e.g. myself, Del, Chris) and that some others are close to being eligible (e.g. Bruce). It is conjecture however that simply because theses players can play Masters that they will play Masters.

Bruce, Del and I finished 2nd, 4th and 5th respectively in the Open division of the 2016 QP Open. We are still competitive, pushing the best in the Open Division and being pushed to do better ourselves. If you force Bruce, Chris and I to play Masters (and by force I mean say that in order to Qualify for Masters at Euros we have to play Masters in the UK) you diminish the quality of the Open Division removing some of the best players from it.

In addition it would be unfair to all the Masters that any non-Master (e.g. Del (sorry to pick on you, mate!)) would be free to keep playing Open if they wish and challenging for a cashing place in Open while still knowing their Euros qualification was unaffected. When there is the real possibility of cashing in the Open, but not Masters, this is an issue.

Trevor wrote:As the sport in the UK grows (hopefully). Strength in depth in all divisions will occur and will produce competetive Euro players playing their division domestically.
I don't think anyone could disagree with this sentiment, we all want to see the sport grow and for divisions to have greater depth. 'Growth', however, means widening the base, not pushing the top down.

Trevor wrote:I think this is a robust and extremely clear method of team selection that is relevant for the future.
I agree, and this could be the right thing to do in future, but with current Masters and Grand Masters being competitive in Open this is not the time yet to introduce this.

Trevor wrote:Women and juniors are both BDGA divisions not just Masters as you have suggested.
You're right, my mistake, 'Women' is indeed a BDGA Division along with Open, Masters and Am. Juniors however is not a BDGA Division (determined as a group of players that has its own Powerstats points table). 'Junior' is a classification, and any Junior classified player can play in the BDGA Am, Women or Open Division as they see fit (as can any Grand Master). This brings about a double standard which I don't see the benefit it creating.

Trevor wrote:I wish this years team good luck and success and hope that once the tournament is over a set of criteria for 2018 AND beyond can be decided soon whether it includes some of my suggestions or not.
I echo that with one caveat - as with all decisions taken they are reflected on and improved ongoing. We wouldn't imagine that a Qualification criteria decided for the next Euros is the only one that will ever be used.
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by BOF » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:51 pm

Just a quick question on Euros results and Team competition...

http://www.edgc2016.com/event-info/nations-cup/

Do our results in the Nations Cup indicate:

a) player ratings here in the UK are too high?
b) our Team played worse, on average, than they normally do - in all three rounds?
c) the Oulu course is far harder than anything we are used to here in the UK?
d) something else?

This is asked with genuine curiosity since, if we want to do well as a team in future events (one of the prime areas of focus I picked up on from earlier discussions about Euros), we need to be mindful of how our domestic implementation of the ratings systems impacts our ability to succeed in the Nations Cup standings.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by seamus » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:18 am

D. IMO the results of the Nations Cup indicate British disc golf is lacking in the player density of other Countries participating in the EDGC.
In defense of British disc golf, the Finns are on top of the leader board because the disc golf course density in Finland is one of the highest in the sport and matches US States like Minnesota, California and Florida. The sheer number of players pushes the top disc golfers to improve. For example Maple Hill disc golf course in Mass. is arguably one of the finest courses ever built but in NT events there are no local players challenging the top spots. Extremely challenging courses do not necessarily produce top players. What courses like Maple Hill have done thus far for the sport is create 100's of disc golfers and a culture that produces an average player base rated at about 950+/-.
I would bet the two new players to join the Tour this year from the States are from a similar disc golf culture, and most likely considered average players at their home course.
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by bruce » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:42 pm

A) No
B) Yes
C) Yes, it's likely that this caused b)

Seamus makes a valid point, but I do think that longer tougher courses would go some way help to improve playing standards.

There is a general culture of inclusiveness in the UK scene, which is good, but when it materialises as watered down courses I don't personally feel that does the sport justice, or any favours in the long run.
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by BOF » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:18 pm

Thank you both for your thoughtful and thought-provoking responses.

It would be interesting to see the individual round ratings of our players against the other players, just to see how marked the difference was.

I don't know what the ratings of the players in the top 50 of the Open division were. That, too, would be an interesting comparison.

I've always felt that our UK ratings were somewhat inflated, but couldn't understand how that might have come about given the statistical nature of the system.

As Seamus pointed out, we may need bigger, more-challenging courses if we wish to be competetive in such events in the future

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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by bruce » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:59 am

http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/26707
All the round ratings and player ratings are there. Ratings inflation is an enduring myth that is disproved by a decade of international results
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by BOF » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:26 pm

That's the trouble with enduring myths, they're so enduring!

Thanks for info, Bruce.

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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by bruce » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:50 pm

Did some quick analytics.

If you sort the Open players by rating, you could have expected:
James: =31st
Dan: 43rd
Si: 46th
Chris: 59th

Actual results:
Chris: =51st (Delta +8 places)
Dan: 53rd (-10)
James: =54th (-23)
Si: =68th (-22)

I then averaged all players 3 round ratings to determine a performance against rating and ranked them:
Chris: 38th (+5.66 points over rating)
Dan: 66th (-16)
James: 78th (-34)
Si: 81st (-42.33)
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Re: EC 2018 (and beyond) Team GB Qualification

Post by Del » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:58 pm

There are many many elements that can contribute to producing top quality players, but by far the biggest element is dedication, and second to that I would put learning skills from school age. Of course maintaining that dedication is made all the easier when there are "rewards" along the way in terms of beating peers, winning prizes, and gaining recognition of achievements; and the greater the density of players and tournaments the more "rewards" are available. Coaching too,can help with both technique and motivation.
I'm not going to argue against there being some benefit of players being able to compete on "tough" courses or long courses, but that is not the highest ranking factor. Seonaidh and Hamish are 2 of the longest drivers, but they learned their skills at Ullapool on a flat treeless 9 hole course where I set the course record at 18, with only one hole requiring a real drive.
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