EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by seamus » Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:07 pm

james wrote: but as Seamus has pointed out the role of the international co-ordinator does include the selection process for the EDGC team.
Sort of, James, I think the key word is "involved" which could make the Pdga Rep the Ayatollah Oulu OR include everyone, its well worded for the benefactor.
I'm not sure what the history of choosing the Edgc team has been but moving forward, especially for 2018, I hope there is an emphasis on Pdga ratings in the selection.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by BOF » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:26 pm

I would be interested on hearing your suggestions for selection at future EDGC events, Seamus.

I would imagine that ability to attend (as opposed to being invited in the first place) would be based on the following factors:
  • Has enough disposable income, and/or
    Has grown-up children/no children, and/or
    Is happy to abandon family for a week during school holidays and spend the family summer holiday money on yourself
...but I know this discussion should be focusing on the selection process itself!

However, I would like to throw the following 'what if' scenarios into the discussion, all in the name of promoting openness and clarity:

I don't know how often PDGA ratings are updated or how long rounds remain included in PDGA ratings, but could a player maintain a high rating whilst deciding not to play for a season? i.e. the top-rated player makes no appearance on BDGA Tour but is offered the EDGC place by virtue of their high PDGA rating carried forward from the previous year?

OR...
could a player play two or three of the BDGA Tour events, sufficient to keep their PDGA rating high, but insufficient to challenge for the top five (for example) places in the BDGA Tour, and then still be offered the EDGC place because they have a sufficiently high PDGA rating despite other, lower rated players, finishing higher in the BDGA Tour?

OR...
Player has highest PDGA rating at end of calendar year (when the PDGA Tour finishes) and takes up EDGC place that they are offered, but decides not to play on BDGA Tour for the next calendar year (in which the EDGC event takes place).

In the present climate it is more than likely that attendance (in the first instance) will be determined by player availability and finances, rather than any factors relating to skill or ability. But it would be nice to think that, when we have grown sufficiently that some form of selection IS required, we will have a system in place that is open and transparent.

Whether invitations to such prestigious events should be seen as 'prizes' for winning BDGA Tour divisions (i.e. something to aim for) or simply reserved for the highest rated players, regardless of whether they won Tour Divisions or not, is also something I'd like to see considered in this discussion.

For example, this year's BDGA Tour standings for Masters Division, with current PDGA ratings, are as follows:
  • 1. Jonny Morris 937
    2. Ivan Bromage 912
    3. Charlie Mead 918
    4. Conor Davies 928
Notwithstanding the absence of Del, (rated 964 and can play GM or M), Steve Cox (rated 923, who played Open this year but is eligible for Masters), my ability to play GM or M and Charlie's ability to play at Senior GM, GM or M level, the results table shows that the whole selection process could be a bit tricky - even when just considering the oldies!

Clearly the selection criteria need to be explict at the start of the season, so that those who might wish to be selected at least know what it is they have to do to gain an invitation in the first place. (e.g. win or place very highly in your BDGA division - employing whatever tactics necessary to maximise your Powerstats points total, regardless of the quality of the golf you play. Or maybe just play two or three tournaments and do your best to shot low scores to improve/maintain your PDGA rating.)

Just some more food for thought... apologies if some of my comments are blindingly stupid, would never happen in a month of Sundays or have already been addressed in another thread.

Goodnight.

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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by seamus » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:11 am

BOF wrote:I would be interested on hearing your suggestions for selection at future EDGC events, Seamus.
I think its important to ask yourself "What would Donald Trump do?"

Joking aside, how did Matt become Team Captain a few years ago? If he simply said "I've got this" and no one challenged, well there is the system at hand.
I think the most pressing question is what comes first? the team or the captain?
Gone are the days of room for everyone on the disc golf bus, someone is going to be disappointed, which is what Bruce stated above. So IMO its important to keep two things in mind, 1. don't burn out the (Volunteer) Board with every silly little thing, 2. stay as objective as possible to avoid bitterness.

http://www.pdga.com/players/stats?Year= ... &sort=desc

If the objective is to put forward the best team possible to increase number of allotted spaces in 2018 why has no one courted Calum Peterson for the Am division? He is currently tied for 6th in Europe as an Amateur.
BOF wrote:Clearly the selection criteria need to be explicit at the start of the season, so that those who might wish to be selected at least know what it is they have to do to gain an invitation in the first place.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by LostMeow » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:29 am

Thanks, Seamus.

(There isn't an Am division at EDGC, though.)

Just to make it clear, this is a really difficult decision!

Going forward (EDGC 2018 and beyond) we probably need to think about whether we regard EDGC as either:
a) A team event and opportunity to put out as competitive a Team GB as possible, or;
b) A potential reward for players on the BDGA Tour.

Historically it has been b) as a way of trying to achieve a); in future, to be decided!
Any system, as Seamus says, is going to be divisive, as we can't take everyone that wants to go.
Attempting to put together a set of rules for selection could also result in a ridiculously complicated situation to try to cover all possibilities. In the end it's going to have to come down to judgement in some way.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by seamus » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:47 am

LostMeow wrote:(There isn't an Am division at EDGC, though.)
Whoops :), guess I should have checked first, foot firmly in mouth, wearing Vibram soles of course.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by Jester » Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:00 pm

james wrote:Just a quick piece here.

We are currently in discussion as to what the make up of the team will look like. This will come down to a board decision but as Seamus has pointed out the role of the international co-ordinator does include the selection process for the EDGC team. We are all involved in the process and no final decisions will be made without an OK from the board. I feel it's important to recognise that whilst tour performance is the main category for selection this does not necessarily decide which divisions have priority and how we decide to fill the divisions.
Personally I think we should focus on trying to gain the most points possible so that we can potentially have more places for next time.
A 'quick piece' or otherwise, James, could you please in future not mis-quote others to post-justify an argument? Seamus did not point ‘selection process’ is part of the role in question, what he did do was helpfully circulate the Board's job ad for the PDGA co-ordinator. Everyone can read that it only goes as far as stating 'the international co-ordinator will also be involved in the team for Euro 2016'. That's it. Nothing about picking who plays and who doesn't, and to go back to the point in time where Charlie accepted the role, he made no statement that he intended to try and take control of the team selection.

If there are more players than slots for EC2016, and it's still an 'if' as you haven't asked which players would like to go to EC2016 yet, then yes deciding who gets the nod could be an issue the Board has to deal with. At this point it is of course at the Board's discretion who they consult about who should go e.g. if some of Seamus' guys could be in the running you may talk to him.

Where I think the ball has been dropped here is Charlie announcing he has a power that as far as I can see he does not, and subsequently him not responding when it was questioned by multiple players. IMHO much of this discourse can be avoided if he'd retracted that comment days ago when it was first pointed out. The silence could be interpreted as an unwillingness to address the matter, which I’m sure he wouldn’t want. Communication on these matters really is the key.

Regarding your point that ‘more points at EC2016 = more player slots at EC2018’, can you direct me please to where this is officially stated as the method the EC organisers use to allocate country slots? If BDGA members are to be accept that they may not get to go to EC, despite having qualified by the method that was in place throughout the 2015 season (Tour finishing position), I very much hope there is something in black and white that backs this up.


As an aside, i want to leave no doubt I'm continually grateful to everyone, from Board members down to local players, who give up their spare time to help promote and grow Disc Golf.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by Charlie Mead » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:05 pm

In my application to the Board for International Co-ordinator (a wider role than just PDGA Co-ordinator) I stated that I felt that a number of criteria could be used to select the team this year given that the divisions increased to 7 (addition of Women Masters) and we had only 9 slots. I was elected to this role by the Board. I have been working with the Board at all times in this process. I was also then elected Team Captain for EDGC 2016 with a responsibility to select the team in collaboration with the Board.

I have also been reading and listening to the comments on the Forum and privately from individuals not wanting to communicate through a public platform. I have not responded to any perceived criticism or lack of clarity of process until I have made recommendations that the Board can consider.

The following criteria, in order of importance to me, given precedents and need for a strong team are:

1.Finishing places on Tour in 2015
2.Chance of getting high points so we can argue for more slots next year (EDGC is a Team competition across all divisions)
3.PDGA Ratings - specifically for helping decide selection if a player played outside their own division / PDGA division on Tour in 2015.

Point 1 is self explanatory.

Point 2 is based on the Ranking of any player in their division taking only European players into account. I have rated all eligible players . I am currently rated 2nd best SGM in Europe, Sue is ranked 5th best Women's Master in Europe, Jonny is ranked 85th Master,as an example of how we might best accrue points. The reality is that most players will do better than their ranking, especially those who appear to have a high number - as there are a lot of Swedes and Finns in the top of all divisions and they cannot stack all divisions even with 30 players on their team. So Open players will hopefully do a lot better than their ranking suggests.

Point 3 might help make a close decision based on, for example, Ivan, Connor or Steve Cox - all eligible for GM's but playing in Masters and Open Division on BDGA Tour.

There is currently agreement on 7 of the places available and all 7 players have been contacted to see if they are available. The remaining 2 places are still being discussed by the Board based on divisional representation. There will be some extra slots available in April and May hopefully, so we have also drawn up a reserve list.

Once players have confirmed their desire to attend and have committed to the team we will publish that Team. Reserve players will also be contacted and added to the team as slots become available.

Please continue to discuss any issues for this year or for 2018 to help inform any future process. This has already had consideration by individuals and Board members and a consensus is forming that will be made public later in the year.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by seamus » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:15 am

First of all I wish you all the best of fortune at the Edgc.

I think a more objective system would rely on only one of the three points you mentioned in choosing your team, not to simply flip flop between them to justify a desirable outcome.
Jester wrote:I very much hope there is something in black and white that backs this up.


Otherwise there is an argument to be considered by the membership that these changes are null and void.

I think I made it obvious on this forum my disdain for not evolving the Bdga Tour to be more inclusive but after a decision was made to wait and see I accepted it. But now at the drop of a hat and behind closed doors the qualification for team GB at Edgc is allowed to change mid-season to satisfy short term goals, it doesn't make the Bdga Board seem very consistent and I would recommend a second look.

Secondly I wish team GB the best of fortune at Edgc.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by Charlie Mead » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:50 am

With respect to all concerned the criteria for selection has not changed. As stated previously the results of the 2015 Tour stand. Any other criteria are used as a form of tie-breaker when, for example, players who qualify for GrandMasters played in either Open or Masters division on the Tour.

The only point of discussion is how to divide the small number of slots available amongst seven divisions when we only had three divisions on Tour.

It is absolutely our priority to select the Team based on performances from last year and for the first time in many years make sure those top players have every opportunity to attend EDGC and represent their country.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by Jester » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:53 am

Charlie Mead wrote:It is absolutely our priority to select the Team based on performances from last year and for the first time in many years make sure those top players have every opportunity to attend EDGC and represent their country.
Sorry, Charlie, but this is the most unconvincing argument yet. 2015 Tour qualifiers and 'top players' (say by player rating) are not always going to be the same thing, and I'll wager you are aware of that. I'm sure there are some 'top players' who have not qualified for EC2016 because for whatever reason they did not amass enough points on the 2015 Tour, but that is the way the cookie crumbles. They knew the qualification rules before the season began as did everyone else. For what it's worth, I think you've got a good point: looking at how qualification works for EC2018 onwards is a good idea, but right now it feels like the qualification rules are being manipulated after the event to allow the hand picking of a 2016 EC team. This is grossly unfair on all BDGA members who competed in 2015 and I hope more will speak out against it.

To date both you and James have justified this approach by saying if Team GB score well at EC2016, it will mean more slots for BDGA players at EC2018. Once again, please share the historical evidence that proves this is how country slot calculation works.

Thanks for your time and attention on this.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by bruce » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:44 pm

I think the criticism is unjustifiably harsh here.

2015 Tour standings simply cannot guide selection decisions about GM, SGM, WM or even, frankly, Juniors, as those standings are not collated. In those circumstances I do not see what other option the board has to decide how to fill spots in those divisions other than by looking at ratings or other ranking methods, barring not bothering to fill them at all.

The EDGC documentation has been notably lacking for years, despite repeated calls for it to be formalised, however I can categorically confirm (as country coordinator during that period) that for the last 3 or maybe even 4 ECs the placings at the previous ECs were a contributing factor in allocation. If I can find the formula used I'll share it.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by LostMeow » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:57 pm

Thanks, Bruce.

Although, I have just had from Hans Nagtegaal that past performance at ECs "has not been used in the past, to my knowledge, and will not very likely be used in the future" ... He maintains that PDGA members are the only system they used this year.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by bruce » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:16 pm

LostMeow wrote:Thanks, Bruce.

Although, I have just had from Hans Nagtegaal that past performance at ECs "has not been used in the past, to my knowledge, and will not very likely be used in the future" ... He maintains that PDGA members are the only system they used this year.
Ha, ok! I'll have to dig out the spreadsheets when I get home then, I was fairly certain it was a factor.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by Jester » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:21 pm

Just in case anyone believes I'm being critical of the Board I'm happy to make clear I’m not. It I’ve come across like that, it’s not my intention and I apologise. Everyone should be well aware of the hard work the Board does, and given my service as a former Board member I know exactly what that entails.

It isn't criticism to ask questions about a decision when no supporting evidence is provided, even after repeated requests are made to named individuals and those requests go unanswered at best and ignored at worst. As an Association of members we are encouraged to seek clarification if required. Charlie stated he was in charge of picking the EC team, and then that a better performance at EC2016 would yield more spots at EC2018. Both statements have now been overruled and corrected by current Board members, so perhaps the ensuing confusion this has caused can be understood.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by bruce » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:45 pm

bruce wrote:Ha, ok! I'll have to dig out the spreadsheets when I get home then, I was fairly certain it was a factor.
As I no longer have access to the forums or mailing list where the spreadsheets were hosted, I cannot find the actual spot calculators used. I am sure that it was at least discussed that prior performance would be a consideration, however the only thing I can find in support of that is the following from a draft, unofficial document:
The following procedure has been used to allocate the spots:
• The country specific PDGA membership numbers will provide straight figures
A ranking list will give a good picture of the European disc golf community
• Based on this list, the countries are grouped (Level 1-8)
• Similar sized countries grouped in the same level
Spots added manually in a way that finally all spots are distributed
• Similar sized countries receive the same amount of spots
The ranking could reference performance, or possibly performance influences the manual spots, but I concede that this is flaky evidence at best.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by Trevor » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:05 pm

Here's a novel idea.... Lets let Charlie and the board get on with sorting out EC 2016. Charlies most recent response seems fair enough to me and answers the questions adequately, holes can be picked in any response or argument.

The discussion should now be firmly focused on selection criteria for EC 2018. In my opinion any further discussion specifically on selection and leadership for 2016 does us no favours and is pointless.

We are lucky to be in this position with competition for places for the team and in a good place to set a good grounding for future success.

And while I am way down the pecking order I would consider an offer to represent the BDGA at EC 2016 (I'm sure it was lost in the post).

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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by BOF » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:48 pm

Dear All,

I feel somewhat responsible for stirring up a small hornets' nest with regard to the EDGC team selection process. Apologies - it was certainly not my intention to do so!

Motivated by purely selfish reasons (in the first instance), I was trying to establish:

a) whether I might I be in the running for a place at EDGC 2016.

and subsequently;

b) what I would need to do next time, to get an invite.

For the record, I am no longer available for EDGC 2016 and have let Charlie know accordingly (although the wife still thinks I'm foolishly hankering after a week's pass in late August...)

As in all good relationships, sometimes a 'healthy debate' can bring us closer together - once we've wiped away the tears, blown our noses and had a nice cup of tea.

See you on the course.

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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by seamus » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:30 am

I think its a good debate and I'm sorry if I seem abrasive, nouns and verbs solve issues quickly.

On December 27th the Pdga happily announced the sale of member #80000. Last week I signed my daughter up to the Pdga because I wanted her to have a 5 digit number, her number is just short of 81,000. Quick addition tells you the competitive side our sport is expanding at about 1000 players a month and Pdga membership as we all know is just the tip of the iceberg when considering overall player base. It is a young players game and if building on the future is a serious objective then the average age of the Edgc team should be under 35.
By only using Pdga ratings to select the team in '18 the very top of Masters+ will be represented and all the strong youthful players with high rating will have the choice to attend or decline. I write this only to spark positive debate.
Best of luck to Charlie and Team GB '16.

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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by Jester » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:34 pm

Trev – I respect your opinion and any others who share it. You got me into Discgolf in the first place and I will forever be grateful for that.

Our elected Board members and the individuals they appoint are responsible to the Members in what they say and do. It is the openness of our democratic system that allows us to question and request clarification when those officials do something out of kilter with a previously agreed set of rules or system, or appear build a case around a fact (that based on what’s been shared to date) is difficult to corroborate.

The Members involved in this thread including myself have all apologised and made clear no offence was meant in our comments and hope none was taken by our Officials. I believe the protracted nature of this ongoing discussion is down to the unusual lack of response or explanations from those Officials. I feel it would close the loop if those individuals could recognise, admit and apologise for their mistakes. If I was in this position, I would like to think I’d have done this when it was first pointed out, thus avoiding much of this discussion.
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Re: EUROPEAN DISC GOLF CHAMPIONSHIPS 2016

Post by Charlie Mead » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:42 pm

The BDGA Board and International Co-ordinator have selected the folllowing players to represent Great Britain at the European Disc Golf Championships in Finland in August 2016.

Congratulations to everyone selected.

THE TEAM

James Luton
Dan Ryan
Chris O'Brien
Simon Luard
Sian Lee
Jonny Morris
Derek Robins
Charlie Mead
Charlie O'Brien


Thank you also to members who expressed their views about the selection process. We hope that everyone will get behind the team and help with many aspects of organisation and support that will go into making this team as successful as possible.
Charlie Mead
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