Eurotour 2016

News from the PDGA EuroTour and farther afield.
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BOF
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by BOF » Thu May 05, 2016 9:00 pm

Bump.

Still on the lookout for a lift from Thurston Manor to (and maybe from) the course on Sat/Sun.

Anyone staying at Thurston Manor and bringing their car?

Thanks in advance

BOF

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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Del » Thu May 05, 2016 9:56 pm

Well BOF, if you can find me a bed at Thurston Manor, I may be able to give you a lift :)
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by BOF » Fri May 06, 2016 6:46 am

Too much of a price to pay for a lift - the wife and kids may not appreciate you snuggling up to me!

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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by seamus » Fri May 06, 2016 8:32 am

The FPO division for WGE has gotten 1 louder, it goes to 11.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc


http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/24382

BOF, there should be plenty of traffic between the course and Thurston Manor to get you a lift.
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by seamus » Sat May 07, 2016 8:56 am

Image
This is hole 8 #feeltheBern fyi everything inside the wide stakes including the bridge will be considered Out of Bounds.
I feel the bridge is not clearly defined and there is no opportunity to make a proper stance. The chances of a disc coming to rest on the bridge are slim to none, but since its possible I thought I'd address it now.

One week from now you will be well into your round. Safe travels
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by BOF » Sat May 07, 2016 5:56 pm

I'll just stand at the exit at 7.30am on Saturday morning and see if I get picked up, shall I?

(Don't even think about a witty comeback to that...)

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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Jester » Mon May 09, 2016 10:46 am

Having been on cards that have had to make more than one difficult OB call on #8 I'm pleased to see this has been addressed. With judgement calls on OBs/missed mandos, anything that removes ambiguity for the group is of benefit to all players. I assume a string will run between the stakes to give the actual OB line?
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Trevor » Mon May 09, 2016 2:24 pm

That's a piece of string question.

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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by seamus » Mon May 09, 2016 3:58 pm

Depends on whether you bring some string Jester ;)
What is a difficult call?
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by BOF » Mon May 09, 2016 5:19 pm

Does one wrap one's string arround the stakes so that it leaves each stake tangentially to the waterward side of the stake, thereby making the OB area slightly smaller, or the landward side, thereby increasing the size of the OB area?
In the absence of string and a disc landing between two stakes, where should one call the OB line to exist?
If a disc lands between two stakes and there is no string nor anyone to see it land, does it make a sound?
Splitting hairs, maybe, but valid questions nonetheless.

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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Jester » Mon May 09, 2016 8:05 pm

A difficult call is one where there is OB or a mando but there is not a clear definition of what this is (this is in no-way unique to hole 8, or just to Dunbar, this happens at all events and I think it’s something we can be much better at). Ambiguity in a line causes doubt and means different groups play the hole in different ways. In a sport where everyone competes against the same course, that ambiguity means some have it easier or harder than others, and this is unfair on the whole field.

For example, a disc lands between the stakes with no string. With no defined line it becomes a group decision as to what's ob and what's not. Different groups will award benefit of the doubt to the player in different ways, potentially declaring in-bounds when actually the disc is out and vice versa.

When all of that can be avoided for the cost of a ball of string, applied consistently along one side or the other of the stakes at ground level, I don't know why any TD wouldn't do this. :D
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by seamus » Mon May 09, 2016 8:30 pm

Someone contacted me earlier about payouts.
As it stands we have 62 players attending, 4 are Juniors
We'll have a Pro Purse of about €4300, I'm expecting a couple late entries in MPO so that should go up slightly.
40% payout table
MPO €2270.00
1. €540
13.€70

FPO €805
1. €330
4. €112

MPM €512
1. €244
2. €153
3. €115

MPG €659
1. €270
4. €92
=€4246 which I know is short, this is just an estimate.
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by seamus » Mon May 09, 2016 9:32 pm

Jester wrote: In a sport where everyone competes against the same course, that ambiguity means some have it easier or harder than others, and this is unfair on the whole field.
Until we introduce lasers and group umpires into our sport we'll all have to deal with a little interpretation, string will not correct this.
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Trevor » Tue May 10, 2016 7:37 am

For the record I would prefer the string but...
Say there are 15 groups of players. The first four groups have no players go OB. In the 5th the group a player lands with the disc OB by 1 millimetre as measured by the string meteculously laid out by the TD. In the 6th group there are no OBs but wee Jimmy and ginger Paul are having a bit of banter and get distracted when stepping over the OB string ( as every player must do to complete the hole). Paul, who is generally considered a bit of a numpty trips on the string and pings it 2 millimetres out of position in the exact same spot where the player in group 5 went OB unfortunately the string position would now mean that group 5 player would have been in bounds as Paul could not / did not replace the pinged string exactly as it was. In a major and unprecedented coincidence a player in group 9 also lands in the exact spot as the player in group 5 but is called In bounds. Shortly thereafter the big numpty ginger Paul comes back to pick up his mini which he forgot a half an hour ago and and guess what.... Pinged string.

There have now been several situations where players have not played the course as the TD has initially meant it to be played due the the string moving. This has effected the scores of several players. What if Paul did try to put the string back and got it wrong? Is a player allowed to alter a course whatever his or her good intentions? You could say that between groups of players there is a difference in how the course is played which in my mind is not much different then there being no string and Players giving different "benefits of doubt" interpretations in different groups in a course with no string. You could argue that if the string was out of position you could use the white posts as a definitive line which would negate the whole string argument.

I've now gotten a bit bored with this, but my point is if a line was PAINTED the piece of string question would be moot and big numpty Paul could just keep on bumbling through.

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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Jester » Tue May 10, 2016 10:09 am

seamus wrote:
Jester wrote: In a sport where everyone competes against the same course, that ambiguity means some have it easier or harder than others, and this is unfair on the whole field.
Until we introduce lasers and group umpires into our sport we'll all have to deal with a little interpretation, string will not correct this.
Nope, that last part is simply not true.

The rule book directs where and when group decisions may be required. The reason interpretation might be required is because the course is not clearly enough defined. IMHO players shouldn't ever have to imagine where an OB line should be, the TD should just have marked it. This OB is critical to the way the hole plays - you expect people to go into it. Assuming you've staked it out to avoid the issues in previous years that a lack of water in the ditch mean the OB line was unclear, why would you create a new OB line that wasn't completely clear? It costs pennies, takes minutes, yet could be the difference to a player between winning or losing the event, and this is the British Open we're talking about, not a Sunday afternoon round with mates.

The only OB decision the player/group should have to make is if any part of the disc is in bounds, and without a clearly marked line that's unnecessary guesswork. I don't think paint is the correct approach as it doesn't have a clean edge and OB calls can be just as contentious. Every aspiring event in the world uses rope to mark OBs at ground level, with stakes or flags above ground so the line can be seen from a distance. Tied securely at ground level around solid stakes it doesn’t move, provides the clearest indication of the OB line, and if the rope is inadvertently moved it is simply replaced.
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by bruce » Tue May 10, 2016 12:33 pm

IMO two stakes with no string/rope is superior to roped, as long as it is clearly stated whether the IB or OB edge of the stakes are to be taken as the line. A string will be attempting to approximate line of sight between those points, and is sometimes (often!) subject to movement during an event. Line of Sight does require a judgement call to be made, but it is a concrete unchanging line.

While I use rope in some areas at QP, that is because the terrain is generally more difficult to mark out. If I could go with the staked solution in the picture I would prefer to do so
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Jester » Tue May 10, 2016 2:26 pm

With the greatest of respect, mate, I don't see the USDGC, European Open or any other event of note asking players to determine OB by sight, and I would raise this with any TD who thought this was adequate course prep. The rope is attached to the ground so it can't move, the line is unequivocal, the OB decision is made by all players with a clear conscious and no room for ambiguity.
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Trevor » Tue May 10, 2016 3:08 pm

Jester wrote:With the greatest of respect, mate, I don't see the USDGC, European Open or any other event of note asking players to determine OB by sight.

Jester check out the Disc golf Guy Vlog 379 Nick Hyde 2016 from minute 35. This proves you wrong but also validates your OPINION with regards to ambiguity and string / rope.. Saying this the disc is clearly out despite Mcbeth attempts to wiggle the flag.

Pedantically although my scenario may seem sarcastic it is possible and I would question your claim that rope could not be moved and then put back correctly thus also creating ambiguity.

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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Jester » Tue May 10, 2016 3:21 pm

I' agree there isn't a 100% perfect solution, but if it's not the most appropriate option, why do the biggest tournaments in the world use rope to mark out OB? I've stated above my views on the short-comings of not marking a physical line, perhaps the focus should be on making rope less prone to movement by adding more stakes? Actually to take this to it's most ridiculous conclusion, why not just have a line of stakes each less than a disc-width apart? No rope needed, except for when a disc lands on top of the stakes. Hmm, perhaps just best to mark a line anyway? :roll:
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Re: Eurotour 2016

Post by Jester » Tue May 10, 2016 3:41 pm

Thanks for the video reference, Trev: https://youtu.be/RWT59OdVkFQ?t=2082. I was most amused to see the TDs hurriedly putting a rope down between the flags to determine that the lie was indeed OB. This, and closers calls like it, are indeed the scenarios that will favour some players but not others when there is no line provided to give a clear answer.
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