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ketchup
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Post by ketchup » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:22 pm

I would like to reinforce the fact that the work of the board is appreciated greatly, and without those select few, we would not have a tour. I was not having a pop at anyone, just mearly wanted clarification on the gap in our tour, and not to belittle anyones efforts!

We all want the sport to grow in the uk, and introducing new players and raising the profile of the game is the only way to do this.

I may be out of line in saying this, but to me it feels like the game is stagnating. Do we for example have burnlaw/ beaminster events at the start and end of the year for any other reason than it has always been that way? I accept that some courses are going to be unplayable at certain times of the year due to different factors, but to me it really does feel that personal agendas may be influencing this.

There has been a few stand-out comps this year and some top work from the TD's, but on others it feels like we are just going through the motions.

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Post by TheGroover » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:15 pm

ketchup wrote: There has been a few stand-out comps this year and some top work from the TD's, but on others it feels like we are just going through the motions.
Is that the fault of TDs or is it the fault of all of us for not hosting any new tournaments? For example, once you've played 4 Frostbreakers, the wild weather, Toby's home-made soup, camaraderie of staying in the house, all lose their novelty.

The first time you experience, it's utterly incredible. The thing is, once it's lost its novelty, it doesn't make it any less amazing. If there is any "stagnation" I would say that the responsibility is on all of us for not getting more courses installed or running more tournaments. I do not think it's the fault of the TDs. Personally, I didn't really feel this year that any TDs were just "going through motions".
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Post by Steve » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:24 pm

It would be nice if people could address whole posts. Ross has also raised other points.
Dave and myself have offered our help with the obvious gap in the season to help out with new courses/tournaments.
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Post by bruce » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:06 pm

There are many reasons why we haven't had any Tour bids in that window; PDGA events, grass-cutting, venues that have 2 events wanting an early then a late, etc, etc, etc... Nothing stopping anyone from running additional events in that gap, as per my previous post.

There are a set of requirements for a Tour event: If we receive Tour quality bids to run events in that gap, nothing stopping that happening.
There are a smaller set of requirements for a PDGA sanctioned event, whether one or two day. Nothing stopping that happening.
There are an even smaller set of requirements for a non-sanctioned event, whether one or two day. Nothing stopping that happening either!

If anyone wants to run one, they can advertise it here, we'll add it to the calendar, whatever else you like! You want insurance, we have insurance! Simples!
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Post by ketchup » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:57 pm

Andy, i am not looking to place blame on anyone, thats not the point i was trying to make, and i accept that everyones personal experience may differ from mine, its only my view, as someone who has been on the tour for 5 years now i feel i can voice my opinion, and i guess i am just questioning the current status quo.

I dont play discgolf for what i can get out of it, if that was the case i would have given up a couple of years ago! I play to experience the courses we have to offer in this country, to play with a group of people i can have a laugh with, and i have a good time regardless of my playing level.

It does seem that sometimes if a view is expressed or if questions are being asked, the response is not always very positive, we all want to see new faces at events, if that means individuals running smaller comps in the quiet months of our tour or setting up more regional clubs to try and attract more interest in the sport then i am sure that i am not alone in wanting to be involved in that.

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Post by bruce » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:04 am

ketchup wrote:Andy, i am not looking to place blame on anyone, thats not the point i was trying to make, and i accept that everyones personal experience may differ from mine, its only my view, as someone who has been on the tour for 5 years now i feel i can voice my opinion, and i guess i am just questioning the current status quo.

I dont play discgolf for what i can get out of it, if that was the case i would have given up a couple of years ago! I play to experience the courses we have to offer in this country, to play with a group of people i can have a laugh with, and i have a good time regardless of my playing level.

It does seem that sometimes if a view is expressed or if questions are being asked, the response is not always very positive, we all want to see new faces at events, if that means individuals running smaller comps in the quiet months of our tour or setting up more regional clubs to try and attract more interest in the sport then i am sure that i am not alone in wanting to be involved in that.
Ok, I know that sometimes Board members (and former Board members!) can seem a little defensive when there is criticism on here, and that could be perceived as defending the status quo. I'd like to offer some reassurance that we do listen to opinions, take on board criticism, and are definitely willing to adopt new ideas. That doesn't mean we'll definitely adopt any idea in particular, but we will assess them on their merits!

As part of many things the BDGA does, it tries to run a national competition structure. There are basically 4 main requirements that drive the schedule, in no particular order:
1: Maximise attendance
2: Geographical spread
3: Fair and effective competition
4: High standard of event

These requirements are sometimes contradictory; for example we could probably increase overall attendance by focussing everything in central locations, but that would not promote fair and effective competition for players in more remote locations, due to a lack of geographical spread. We could have a massive geographical spread by having events every week at every 9 hole course in the country, but that would lower standards and reduce effective competition.

Overall, I feel the balance is pretty good. Ideally, we'd have 2 or 3 more tour standard venues to spread it around a bit, losing Hayling, Kingsland and the Caledonian hasn't helped, but within the constraints of what we have to work with I'm confident that we are delivering a solid tour.

Other than chucking a couple of events into the current summer gap, I'm interested to hear what ideas people have on 'freshening up' the current Tour?

One idea that's been talked about in the past is one-day events. So we could offer those, with 50 points for the winner, and you take your best 8 days instead of 4 events, e.g. 2*2 day + 4*1 day, or 3*2 +2*1 etc?
That way we would flesh out the tour to a much higher number of events. I guess the schedule would probably only have 4 or 5 two day tournaments, with as many as a dozen 1 dayers. Standards for the one-days could be slightly lower; we'd still expect baskets, but you could limit places to 36 and have 2*(2*9) hole rounds (needs 13+ for ratings) in places like Shropshire. It's easier to set up a temporary 9 holer than an 18, so there would be more potential venues.

The down side would be a reduction in the effective competition; for example less players would travel to Burnlaw for a one dayer, meaning 50 points up for grabs to a local. Possibly we could tweak the scoring so 1 dayers are worth 49, or 2 dayers are worth 101 or similar.
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Post by West » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:14 am

On a side note :

Still looking for bids for the Nationals in 2010, please contact via the website if you would like to run it!
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Post by bruce » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:54 am

What, no one interesting in having an actual reasoned discussion? Fun gone out of it now you're not able to just moan? :wink:

It's been suggested to move the Aug QP date to late July, which would have 2*7 week gaps instead of one 11 week gap (between Tours, there is still the British Open in there which 23 touring players attended last year).

Personally I don't see the value, but happy to do it if people think it's worth it.
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Post by Steve » Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:16 am

Hehe, I like the idea of the additional rated comps and think the idea could work. The only thing I can think of that would hinder this is the one day theme. People are more likely to travel further distances if they will be spending a fair bit of time at the event (ie 2 days not 1).

I would welcome the move of the summer QP event, but obviously will go with the majority vote.

How many of those UK touring players in this years brit open were AM's?

Now stop being so reasonable, so I can start to moan again please ! :p
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Post by richard » Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:17 am

There seems to be some dissent in the ranks... so how about trying to put together a format for a mid summer cross the country team event that we could play , probably at QP, probably one day, handicapped, banter creating, fun yet competitive. i am thinking 4 in a team, each player in the team handicapped by rating . then get a format together where we maybe have 2 doubles or 1 doubles and 1 singles. stroke play rather than matchplay. maybe have the clubs represented or just have people getting their teams together based on rankings/handicaps.
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Post by ketchup » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:29 pm

I am always up for a reasoned discussion, i dont have to start it off with sarcasm either :wink:

Thankyou for your response Bruce, i think the idea of shunting the QP event would be a good step, but as has been mentioned, lets put it to the vote and see what happens!

I know i may have got a few backs up with my comments, but if it provokes some positve chat and a few ideas being thrown around then it cant be a bad thing :) I like the idea from Mr Wood, QP is a good central location for an event like that, i think the concept of one day events that work towards points and or ratings would also be a good draw for players.

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Post by Village » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:41 pm

ketchup wrote: i think the concept of one day events that work towards points and or ratings would also be a good draw for players.
I too think that this is an idea that has legs.

erm, can't think of anything else to say at the moment....

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Post by rhatton1 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:45 pm

Mr Wood,

you've got me all excited of a friday. Lets do this.

Leave the 11 week gap as it is and in the middle of it an innovative one day event of epic proportions shall be created for your playing pleasure.

If this event is restricted to players with a current PDGA ranking (for handicapping reasons) this overcomes one of the problems discussed at the AGM this year of why would people want to join the PDGA/ go on tour events. This sort of competition could be an incentive to join up/play.
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Post by bruce » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:55 pm

Ignoring for the minute the distraction of some kind of team event...

12 of 23 players at BO were BDGA Ams (13 if you count Jonny B ;)) although some chose to play Pro (Rick Rick and Tim Herring).

I'd see a revised Tour as something like this, going on this year's calendar:

4 or 5 two dayers
Burnlaw (Spring - April)
QP (Summer - June)
Whitcombe (Summer - July/Aug)
Croydon (Summer/Autumn - Sept)
Plus maybe Frostbreaker and Mull alternate years. Likewise Essex and say Croydon could rotate.

Plus 1 dayers
QP (March & Aug)
Essex (April)
Bristol (May)
Shropshire (June/July)
Burnlaw (Sept)
Plus maybe a couple others - Croydon or Whitcombe again, a.n.other temp venue (Oxford? Harrogate?)

Two dayers much like current events - 54 holes plus finals. Trophies etc. 100 points for winning

One dayers - 36 holes min. Rounds of 13+ holes for ratings, but can be 2*9. 36 players min capacity (4 per hole on a 2*9). No requirement for finals or trophies. 48 points for winning

Overall score - Best 8 day total, to be comprised of: minimum of 2*2day, 2*1day, plus others to suit.
Maximum available points therefore: 396 (3*2day + 2*1day - 5 events)
Alternatively: 392 available by 2*2day + 4*1day - 6 events)
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Post by Scuttler » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:28 pm

Speaking as one of the few Scot who still travels to tournaments (or at least I'm planning to again from next year), I don't see one day events being worth the time and money and effort (except maybe Burnlaw), so that would immediately cut my options for touring down.

As has been said earlier in the thread, the national Tour should be the high level events, I don't see why a series of one day events couldn't be held without such a dramatic impact on the two day events.

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Post by bruce » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:17 pm

Scuttler wrote:Speaking as one of the few Scot who still travels to tournaments (or at least I'm planning to again from next year), I don't see one day events being worth the time and money and effort (except maybe Burnlaw), so that would immediately cut my options for touring down.

As has been said earlier in the thread, the national Tour should be the high level events, I don't see why a series of one day events couldn't be held without such a dramatic impact on the two day events.
And there's the issue... :) Any system has pros and cons, the trick is picking the solution with the best balance..

You could have a few 1 day events up your neck of the woods. The CTS crew have baskets, and could set up 1-dayers pretty easily. If the requirements are less stringent and the effort to run much lower, wouldn't you consider running some? Might be just the thing that's needed to reignite the Scottish scene!
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Post by Del » Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:17 pm

Bruce raised the possibility of the QP Open moving from August to late July, but that isn't a runner for me as I am hoping to go to Worlds at the end of July. Sorry for any confusion there, I had said that I didn't mind moving the QP Open forward, but should have advised exactly which dates were possible.

On the wider question of tour structure, personally. I would be inclined to keep the tour as it is. I agree that it would be most desirable to have a tour event in that summer period, but if nobody can magic up a venue and TD then we have to live with it.

I have said for many years that we really need to have small one day events which are held in diverse locations. There are small groups of players in many areas who could be brought into the competitive scene if only we went to their patch. There are plenty of portable baskets around.
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Post by ChrisOBrien » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:42 am

Much has been said. I cannot address everything, so just a general opening comment to say that such debate and ideas without anyone falling out is a good thing. Thanks in particular for Bruce for steadying the ship.

The fact is that this sport is on the up. It's going to continue to grow. There will be more courses to choose from over the coming months and years.

One-day events at new venues will be great for launching new courses, drawing in new players and giving exisiting touring players a new experience. Any golden nuggets can be incorporated into the national tour the following year (I would like to see us keeping the 10(ish) 2 day events in the year by the way). One day events could also be run on potential new sites using portable targets as a 'feasibility study' and demonstration of competitive Disc Golf to local stakeholders.

The universe works in mysterious ways - we have a big gap - lets look around us and use this time to seek out new opportunities to grow the sport at grass roots! Rejoice fellow golfers, REJOICE!

And yes, before you ask, I have been spending more time with Gary lately.

Finally I'd just like to add... let's all get down the the British Open in July! It's going to be something very special for all involved. Plus there will be a number of British players bidding to qualify for the USDGC and they will appreciate support from their fellow countrymen and women. (I can't think off the top of my head who these ambitious players are, but I know they're out there somewhere).

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Post by Nige » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:42 pm

The concept of one-dayers is mighty fine, I'm digging that :) Running them during the Tour months, i.e. when it's warm, could also have a better effect on new players than the winter doubles does!! Better geographical spread and the 1-day nature of a 1-day event would surely attract new/more players.

Lowering the requirements in terms of prizes and facilities would make it much easier to TD, and more appealing as a 'warm-up' for prospective 2-day events, but the standards can't slip. If a 1-day event was run as a Tour event, I'd suggest the same standards for course prep, baskets and, I know this sounds obvious, but a 9 hole 1-day Tour course should be half an 18 hole Tour course - it's still got to challenge. Having finals would also make it more 'Tour'?

While the points balance of 2-day vs 1-day is an important one at the top of the table, it's not particularly relevant to most players! Hmm, would allocating more points to 2-day events attract more top players to those events, lowering the effective average rating of a 1-day event that is well attended by new players, resulting in a mid-table player acquiring more points by attending more 1-dayers to make up the total as opposed to fewer 2-dayers. This has been seen on the Tour before, so would 1-day events just revisit the scene?

I'm on the '2-day Tour events at the top level' side of the fence. A series of 1-day events in the summer would be great, though making them non-Tour would allow for more flexibility and accessibility. Whether 1-day events are team, doubles, speed golf, piggy-back left-handed golf, I don't see it matters - get people playing in the summer!

On a side note, I'm hopeful Kingsland will make a comeback some time, it's just such an immense job to install an 18 hole course that only lasts for 2 1/2 days a year..! Next time there'll be a hole from the top of the hill across the river, with a ferry to the green :twisted:

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Post by Steve » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:11 pm

Good post Nige,

One day events in the summer thumbs up from me. Winter doubles have their place too though to fill the dark dreary season. The turnout last weekend confirmed my faith in peoples support despite travelling large distances.

I hope with the new changes at the Mereside Shrewsbury 9 hole course (thanks for all the great and constructive feedback on the day) will offer the challenge needed give some great fill gap events. The ranking for the events is just the icing on the cake really :)

With regards Kingsland, just drop me the word. Help always available dude. It would be great to get a 2 day tour back in the town.
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