Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

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Neil M
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by Neil M » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:09 pm

Yes but the new boundaries would place 12 current AdAms in IntAm. I appreciate that we wouldn't be forced to move down but if the idea is to even out the divisions then would there not be some compulsion for people to play in their ratings appropriate division unless very borderline?
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by JesseD » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:24 pm

i'm all for it!

i have not found the need to play well, for a very long time.

even at my very best i'll always be 5-6 shots behind the 'naturally gifted' players.

so please move me down, so I may get a little desire back in my game.

even if only for a year.
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by Neil M » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:29 pm

I have no problem with this happening and have no problem with being 'reclassified' as IntAm. I just wanted to raise a few valid questions.
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by bruce » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:12 pm

And valid questions they are too Neil.

The main driver is to maintain the competitiveness of the Open division and enable a smoother transition from Am to Open. At 920 there's maybe just too big of a jump for people to realistically get near the Open final. I think maybe 5-6 years ago you could do so as there weren't as many high rated players, there was a top 3-4 and room for 1 or 2 to push through, nowadays it's more like a top 6 battling to not be the guy missing out on the final.

If we move the Open-Adv boundary, it would be foolish to leave the Ints where they are for the same reasons, too big a jump from bottom to top of the division, as Rich points out the top Ints are shooting 880 or so anyway to win. Ultimately you will still be playing within your rating peer group, just some who were at the bottom of Adv will now be top of Int. I certainly wouldn't be pressuring an 870 golfer to move down, players know their own games and are quite capable of making decisions themselves. I'm sure someone who is 870 but has just moved up as their rating is rising will think "I'll stay up and keep on improving" whereas someone who has been 870 for 3 years will welcome the opportunity to play competitively, much as will be the case between Open and Adv. Tweedy will move up, Jesse will move down!

I considered a Rookie division, but I think it does present additional complications for no real gains. Many Ints start Touring already shooting 880 golf (or even 926 golf, Bagger-Clive!), so I don't see it as necessary. Many Ints are not rated anyway, and are coming in with no expectation of being competitive.

I'm inclined to agree with Derek on 930, it only makes one person difference at the moment (sorry Ivan), but the 50 points per division argument is a good one.
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by Neil M » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:35 pm

I think it would be useful to see what people's intentions would be regarding how they would enter if we moved to these boundaries. I suppose my decision (and others I assume) would be based on where the majority of people I see myself as roughly on par with would be playing. No point in being in competition with only those streets ahead of you or conversely being miles ahead of those behind you. Not sure how many use the forum regularly enough to use it as a barometer of opinion? Perhaps some mention of it in the newsletter with an invitation for feedback. A consultation period between now and January to gauge feeling? (You'd never guess I was a Union rep eh :wink: )
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by bruce » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:41 pm

You can have a brief consultation period from now until the AGM at Nationals :)

Got the board writing their annual reports at the moment, I think this need to be part of Phil Wood's DoC report :)
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by bruce » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:43 pm

Also, the only fixed decision is when someone chooses to play up into Open; make that choice and you're there all season. An Int am who chooses to play up at one event can move right back down again at the next event if their rating allows.
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by Phil Wood » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:36 pm

Where ever divisions ultimatley get split, you will always have players that are either too good for one or just not competitive enough in another. The emphasis needs to be on players to improve and challenge higher up the ratings board. Moving the divisions is not going to solve this issue. I do agree it may re-invigerate a few people.

I think my personal preference is to move the open to 930+ and ad am to 880-929. This will maintain more even number per division and not necessarily discourage newer int ams from feeling too far off the pace.

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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by Mark.A.D » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:44 pm

i'm all for the change, i don't mind staying in ad ams another year ;)
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by LostMeow » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:24 pm

bruce wrote:I considered a Rookie division, but I think it does present additional complications for no real gains. Many Ints start Touring already shooting 880 golf (or even 926 golf, Bagger-Clive!), so I don't see it as necessary. Many Ints are not rated anyway, and are coming in with no expectation of being competitive.
Just from the point of view of opening up the debate a bit, what about:

<860 = 'Novice' category (or maybe a less patronising name :? )
860-900 = Intermediate Am
900-940 = Advanced Am
>940 = Open

We have a large concentration of players in the 860-940 band, so how about more divisions = more competition = more fun? Just a thought.
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by Neil M » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:37 pm

Which Would look something like this

OPEN

Daniel Ryan 980
Derek Robins 980
Jester Wilson 975
Neil Webber 971
Chris O'Brien 966
Matthew Cutler 959
James Luton 953
Conor Davies 947
Jonny Morris 946
Rick Murphy 945

AD AM

Charlie Mead 939
Phil Wood 938
Paul Cooper 935
Ivan Bromage 933
Jonathan Tweed 927
Andy Lucey 927
Jesse Denny 927
Clive Phillips 926
Neal Pickett 923
Mark Davis 921
Richard Wood 915
Fran Wilson 913
Tom Lowes 912
Richard Hatton 911
Sam Stevens 907
Terry Tenger 906
Duncan Hartshorne 904
Paul McCullough 902

INT AM

Steve Kornmuller 900
Mark Fleetham 898
Alastair Findlay 897
Andy Cotgreave 895
Paul Holden 894
Gary O'Malley 892
Dan Pommer 890
Sophie Southgate 887
Dave Allaker 886
David Ethier 884
Chris Rowlands 884
Sue Underwood 884
Nick Clark 883
Stewart Gudgeon 878
Simon Edwards 877
Tim Herring 870
Neil Martin 868
Pete Black 865
Andrew Douse 864
Adam Storr 863
Chris Gill 861
Richard Clegg 861

NOVICE

Jon Turner 854
Steve Broster 853
Jonathan Burden 851
Steve Cardwell 848
Dan Hawkins 844
Jonathan Wood 841
Jason Vidot 836
Ross Davies 828
Phil Sumner 821
James Burton 819
Andy Gee 808
Jerry Andrew 805
Geoffrey Innes 779

Would this make some of the divisions too small? Would need excellent turnout at all events to make 4 divs worthwhile. If well attended it would certainly make them more competitive.
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by richard » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:12 pm

Well I am all for the 3 new division shake up. i would go for the 930 open option.

but I might as well throw this one in as well. I dont know how this would work logistically but; could we have a handicapped version of a tournament as well as the scratch scores. this would not only see how you have scored against your own rating/handicap but also against more experienced golfers. it could just be a secondary " interest maker" or in time, if popular, could become the europa league standard! as i say i dont know if its technically possible ( come on tom!) but it might shake things up a bit.

Summer League handicap system at Croydon seems to be working sensibly now. the Tour de France has multiple classifications to win to keep the interest up so why not add on to ours?
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by Mark.A.D » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:47 pm

not too sure if that would work as players including myself will favour courses to others for the simple fact that they may play better at one course than another.
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by ChrisOBrien » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:56 pm

935 Open sounds good.

And I would be happy to see cash up for grabs too, in the Open division at least. Maybe it was the novelty factor, but when I played a tourney in the USA I enjoyed the fact that you could win cash. I know this point has been raised and dealt with in the past, but while there's talk of a wee shake up, I just thought I'd throw that in!
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by Mark.A.D » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:18 am

would that not mean that players in the open division must register as open players for PDGA as well as BDGA?
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:35 am

Think money shouldn't come into it until we get outside sponsorship otherwise you're just taking money off each other which will discourage anyone from being in the Open division that isn't in the top six with a realistic chance of winning. You could always put bets on with other willing competitors instead.

P.s. Loving Broster in "Novice".... The American system goes Open, Ad Am, Int Am and then Recreational at breaks off 1000 and over, 920 - 1000, 850 -920 and below 850. On suggesting we could now incorporate this on the UK tour to Bruce he had some very valid reasons why this would be a bit overly complicated for our player base.
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by LostMeow » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:41 am

I'm certainly not too keen on the idea of tournament fees going up just so that the Open division can win some cash! I remember Nate Doss commenting on the fact that the players he met at the Cyclone were so much friendlier than those he met in America, in big part because he hadn't come to take our money, so there was no lingering resentment!

Clearly a division for 1000+ rated players is pointless in the UK. I'm sure there are (good) arguments against having 4 divisions, I just wanted to widen up the debate.
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by bruce » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:47 am

Ah cash. Issues to overcome if you want to play for cash:

1. Where does it come from?
a) Increased Open entry fees? - Players at the bottom of the division 'donating' to top players, further disenfranchising those static players and financially punishing improving players wanting to move up. Could we continue to have a mandatory 'move up' rating? Essentially saying now you're over 930 you have to pay Derek/Jester/Dan/Bruce etc to play with them? My feeling is we couldn't, and we'd end up with a top 5-7 or so playing for cash and everyone else in Am. Then how much cash can you raise from 5-7 players? A tenner each? Maybe 1st - £40, 2nd - £20, 3rd - £10 or less
b) Increase everyone's entry fees? - Everyone donating a small sum to the top players? £2 per player would have raised between £52 and £110 this year (excl. NI event). £5 per player would have raised £130 - £275. Can retain rating breaks. I can imagine the indignant rage building across the interwebs (especially in Shropshire ;)) but bear in mind you already do this. Most events hand out plastic or disc credit, and that money comes from fees. A certain robotic event this year actually declared their plastic Open payout as cash to the PDGA; it equated to a £3 per head fee donated to the top 5 Open players. Would Open players prefer to win cash rather than trophies? There's cash already there if that's the case. I know I'd rather win cash than discs or credit, I have enough plastic already!
c) Sponsorship? - Can retain rating breaks. Incumbent on TDs to find some cash. Do we specify a minimum?
d) Other. Could be some combination of b) & c). Could be an 'opt in' version of a), a bit like an ace pot, so lower/improving players do not get punished. Could be the club league night raises 50p per player all season to go towards it.

2. PDGA fees. You accept cash, you have to pay additional PDGA fees
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by Neil M » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:52 am

rhatton1 wrote:The American system goes Open, Ad Am, Int Am and then Recreational at breaks off 1000 and over, 920 - 1000, 850 -920 and below 850. On suggesting we could now incorporate this on the UK tour to Bruce he had some very valid reasons why this would be a bit overly complicated for our player base.
I agree that this would probably be too complicated, I think because of numbers? Would be interested to hear Bruce's reasons?
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Re: Ratings-based divisions for the BDGA Tour

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:23 am

I can't remember the reasons, i just know they made sense at the time (I've slept since :D ) Bruce?

I don't like the idea of increasing entrance fees for all in order to produce payout, but I can't see any issue in people being able to take winnings as cash instead of disc credit, apart from funding issues for the tournament - it's easier to give away a bulk bought disc that cost £5 as opposed to £7 cash but perceived value is the same.

I've seen amateur winners in Open division take plastic instead of Money in order to stay amateur on the Euro Tour so can't see why the reverse is not also acceptable.
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