Bdga National Match Play Championships

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bruce
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:59 am

seamus wrote:Problem is the Open division top 16 encompasses not only MPO but the best players in FPO, MPM, MA1 and maybe into MJ1 so for now an event offering divisions for Nationals Match Play is a one day event. If we could attract 6/8 MPG's I wouldn't hesitate to offer this group the option of a title.
This year's T16 included 1 master players, Jester, who played Open in season at times anyway, plus the top Am player. I'm willing to wager that offered the choice of a T16 place or a T8 divisional place, they'd have opted for the former.

As I stated, there is nothing preventing you running all the other divisions you want to as one day events alongside the T16, with a 1 day stroke play for them the next day. But I see absolutely no value in cramming the T16 into a single day.

Trevor, I think I've already made clear why it doesn't work. Matchplay is 1v1, it doesn't work many v many. We've done it at the Hyzer cup when we've had uneven numbers, it detracts from the event.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:25 am

bruce wrote:As I stated, there is nothing preventing you running all the other divisions you want to as one day events alongside the T16
Not a very legitimate way to run an event, force the top players from other divisions into an artificially propped up Open division thereby scraping off the competition from MPM, MA1, maybe even FPO and MJ1. I believe some folks need to accept that once division choice is fair it will take a few years for the MPO division to recover.
seamus wrote:
The below list of events confirms we are indeed in unparalleled times and as TD I feel a one day event with multiple divisions is more appealing and will ultimately lead to a larger more inclusive enjoyable event.
Has Nationals ever been so book ended with tournament competition?

World Team Disc Golf Championships - Essex 23-27th August 17 Charlie Mead
British Championships Creeksea 2/3rd September Phil Wood
breath......
Rubber Biscuit 9th September 17 Seamus Scanlon
The 10th Croydon Cyclone 16/17th Sept 17 Tom 'no' Lowes 'puttz'
Burnlaw 23/24th Sept 17 Chris O'B
Dinton Pastures 24th Sept Russ Westwood
Masters at Quarry Park 30th Sept/1st Oct 2017 Sue Underwood (Masters only event)
Oct 7th Nationals
Oct 8th Quaich Tour Season Ender

+ MODS, SET & SEMS not yet scheduled
Bruce and Jester are you avoiding these questions?
seamus wrote:Why in your opinion does the Masters division (MPM) not deserve it's own match play title?
Why in your opinion do the Amateur divisions (MA1, MA2) not deserve their own match play title?
seamus wrote:I must reiterate, if we can host a Nationals event matching the divisions of the British Championships and British Open please consider sanctioning this event as part of the Bdga Tour '17/'18 season.
Hosting a weekend event in these unprecedented times without the opportunity for Bdga points, Pdga player rating and Pdga points will only serve to hurt attendance.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Trevor » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:51 am

bruce wrote:Trevor, I think I've already made clear why it doesn't work. Matchplay is 1v1, it doesn't work many v many. We've done it at the Hyzer cup when we've had uneven numbers, it detracts from the event.
Yes thanks Bruce I seem to remember having this debate before, your opinion is as always noted.

Perhaps I should have been specific in directing my question to Tom and Phil as they, as current members of the BDGA board, are able to give a definitive answer to my question.

Perhaps Seamus will have to suck it up and run it the traditional way. #growthesport

Hi Conor.

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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:20 am

seamus wrote:
bruce wrote:As I stated, there is nothing preventing you running all the other divisions you want to as one day events alongside the T16
Not a very legitimate way to run an event, force the top players from other divisions into an artificially propped up Open division thereby scraping off the competition from MPM, MA1, maybe even FPO and MJ1. I believe some folks need to accept that once division choice is fair it will take a few years for the MPO division to recover.
Did you even read my post? The last T16 had precisely 2 players 'artificially propping it up'. One who played Open anyway, is a multiple T16 champion and I'm dead certain would elect to do so given the choice, and one who is currently the 3rd rated player in the UK. That's about as legitimate as it gets. The other divisions would not suffer one iota. The Open division, by clear demonstration and actual evidence, does not require any time to recover. The finalists both came from the bottom half of the draw. In rude health IMO.
seamus wrote:Bruce and Jester are you avoiding these questions?
Why in your opinion does the Masters division (MPM) not deserve it's own match play title?
Why in your opinion do the Amateur divisions (MA1, MA2) not deserve their own match play title?
I've clearly stated I support you running these titles as 1-day events alongside, as above. So it obviously isn't my opinion they don't deserve them.
seamus wrote:I must reiterate, if we can host a Nationals event matching the divisions of the British Championships and British Open please consider sanctioning this event as part of the Bdga Tour '17/'18 season.

Hosting a weekend event in these unprecedented times without the opportunity for Bdga points, Pdga player rating and Pdga points will only serve to hurt attendance.
I'll quote Tom:
On the issue of whether it is a 'sanctioned' tournament in terms of awarding points: Phil has made it clear in his documentation that only stroke play tournaments can award BDGA points; however, as (i) we didn't realise that matchplay tournaments could be awarded PDGA points in the same way as stroke play, and (ii) Nationals 2017 is part of the next season (2017/2018), we do feel that provisionally we could allow this.
So you have precisely zero grounds for complaint. The T16 can be played exactly as it has been, with a final placing 1 through 16, awarded BDGA points. Ratings is up to the PDGA but I can't see how that can possibly happen in matchplay as rounds are seldom completed.

What you choose to do with the remainder of the event is entirely up to you. Run 1-day divisional 8 player matchplay followed by a 1 day strokeplay event, both for BDGA points. Brilliant, sounds great.
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LostMeow
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by LostMeow » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:28 am

I'm really sorry this has developed in this way and I hope it will not fester into a full-blown row with permanent negative repercussions.

The core of the BDGA Nationals overall event is the Top 16 matchplay event. It has grown organically to include additional aspects to cater for those outside the Top 16, but the principle purpose has been, and will continue to be, to crown an overall BDGA matchplay champion. Thus it is probably best considered as multiple events occurring concurrently at the same course: the Top 16 as one event and whatever else is offered separately. The format of the Top 16 event is a very well-established four-round, two-day knockout competition. It is effective and wholly fit for purpose.
seamus wrote:
Jester wrote:The Nationals TD does not have the right to alter the format after the event has been awarded
There is no such document.
You're right, there isn't. But neither is there a document saying that the TD does have the right to alter the format. If you wanted a document explaining what happened at Nationals, you could have asked for one at the time of your bid, so that you knew what you were bidding for. By the same token, if it was your desire all along to choose your own format, the sensible thing would have been to make that clear to Phil at the time of making the bid.

We have clear precedence on our side for the four-round, two-day format, including the Nationals that you ran at Dunbar in 2013.

We may have been wrong to assume that you knew this had to be the format for the Top 16, so I don't want to waste time apportioning blame anywhere. You have two choices:

1. Run the Top 16 as we specify and add on whatever you like to attract other competitors.
2. Rescind your application for the event so that it can be run by someone else. No harm, no foul.

Please let Phil know ASAP which you would like, so that we can proceed with a correct schedule, or re-advertise for a host.

(I feel it necessary to add: I am not shutting down debate as to how the BDGA might crown future matchplay champions. However, this is our only 'blue riband' matchplay event and I am unwilling to be held to ransom over its format. If it is to change format, we (the awarding organisation) will want full responsibility for the final decision.)
seamus wrote: Bruce and Jester are you avoiding these questions?
seamus wrote:Why in your opinion does the Masters division (MPM) not deserve it's own match play title?
Why in your opinion do the Amateur divisions (MA1, MA2) not deserve their own match play title?
'Deserve' is a word I would avoid, but there is certainly nothing wrong with the notion that Masters, Amateurs, Juniors, etc could enjoy their own separate competitions to be crowned matchplay champions of their respective categories. There is also no reason why such divisional competitions could not take place at any other time in the year. The BDGA Nationals Top 16 is not a division. It is open, with a lower-case 'o', in that we intend it to be for whichever players, regardless of age, gender or professional status, who qualify via rating.

seamus wrote:
The below list of events confirms we are indeed in unparalleled times and as TD I feel a one day event with multiple divisions is more appealing and will ultimately lead to a larger more inclusive enjoyable event.
Has Nationals ever been so book ended with tournament competition?

(etc)
There's a couple of big ones in there, but September is usually busy; October less so. Ideally we would have had Nationals as the actual season opener, but it hasn't worked out that way.
seamus wrote:I must reiterate, if we can host a Nationals event matching the divisions of the British Championships and British Open please consider sanctioning this event as part of the Bdga Tour '17/'18 season.

Hosting a weekend event in these unprecedented times without the opportunity for Bdga points, Pdga player rating and Pdga points will only serve to hurt attendance.
I had already said that we were prepared to offer BDGA sanctioning with points for the whole event as part of the 2017/2018 season, including Top 16. PDGA player ratings cannot be awarded for matchplay rounds. That's not our rule, that's just how player ratings work. As a general point, any TD is free to PDGA-sanction their tournament - it's not our place to police that.
Tom
ND

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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Trevor » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:23 pm

LostMeow wrote: The core of the BDGA Nationals overall event is the Top 16 matchplay event. It has grown organically to include additional aspects to cater for those outside the Top 16, but the principle purpose has been, and will continue to be, to crown an overall BDGA matchplay champion. Thus it is probably best considered as multiple events occurring concurrently at the same course: the Top 16 as one event and whatever else is offered separately. The format of the Top 16 event is a very well-established four-round, two-day knockout competition. It is effective and wholly fit for purpose.
Thanks, that's definitive.
LostMeow wrote: We may have been wrong to assume that you knew this had to be the format for the Top 16, so I don't want to waste time apportioning blame anywhere. You have two choices:

1. Run the Top 16 as we specify and add on whatever you like to attract other competitors.
2. Rescind your application for the event so that it can be run by someone else. No harm, no foul.

Please let Phil know ASAP which you would like, so that we can proceed with a correct schedule, or re-advertise for a host.
Yup

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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:39 pm

No hard feelings Tom and Thanks for your concern, this has been a very informative debate regarding new ideas vs the old tradition.

The opportunity to host or attend a two day disc golf event for 16 people is not appealing for reasons I'll explain in person sometime. No harm no foul, no grudges. Glad I brought this up so we didn't go through all this in September, too bad I couldn't convince you otherwise.

All the Best

Trevor you want to TD Nationals at Loch Tay before I rescind ?
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:56 pm

Trevor and I just had a chat, one last question.
In light of the UK disc golf calendar and the 4 two day and one 5 day events in the few weeks preceding Nationals, who out of the people on this thread will commit to attending if we run a traditional Nationals? 2 day 4X18 1v1 Match Play.
Jester?
Bruce?
Tom?
Trevor?
Conor?
James L. is already out for personal reasons
Derek mentioned on Facebook he was planning to attend.
Please anyone I missed feel free to chime in, Thanks.

Due to only 3 Bdga being hosted in Scotland, Isle of Mull, Caledonian Open, Rubber Biscuit, It's going to be very hard for locals to qualify given the new 4 Bdga event minimum.

For me personally I'll be playing in 4 Bdga events, Manchester in February, sadly I cannot attend Mull, The Caledonian Open and Rubber Biscuit. We will most likely request a Bdga event in May so there is my 4. But I'll have a choice to make between The Autumn Equinox or QP Masters because there is no chance I can play 3 two day events on consecutive weekends. Let alone the Croyden Cyclone the week before Burnlaw or the British Championships 2 weeks before that.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:23 pm

It's penned into my calender. You may get a more thorough response on Facebook though.

Are your Quaich tour events not BDGA? I'd have assumed you'd have at least half a dozen 1-day events for Scottish players to qualify from before September, it is 9 months away!
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:59 am

The Bdga Tour merges with The Quaich Tour at every possible crossroad.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:00 am

As an option if you Gents want to launch the 17/18 season with Nationals we could move the dates to September 9/10 at Loch Tay.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:43 pm

I would guess that having it b2b weekends with the Champs at Creeksea would hurt attendance rather than help it
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by mat cutler » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:47 pm

Nationals is the most important tournament of the year for me, I'll attend wherever, whenever but I do want top 16 as is...

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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:26 am

So my assessment Nationals is ready to break into divisions to play for respective titles is not the popular one.
We'll host a traditional Nationals and NTN will be seeded World Cup format for everyone else, two one dayers with an overall points champion if necessary.
Oct 7th and 8th, Cheers
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