Bdga National Match Play Championships

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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:45 pm

I appreciate your opinions, which is why I posted this so early, I could have easily kept quit until September. I would like to make this a one day event as close to tradition as possible. We could make it 54 holes for everyone, I'm not opposed to this, makes for a long weekend of disc golf but we're not going to Loch Tay to play Pat-a-cakes.

In my defense I posted this in September,
seamus wrote:Who will be hosting Nationals in '17?
Is the TD for Nationals in '17 interested in deviating from the normal format?

I think you folks hit the nail on the head with the match play format of Nationals as a season finale. If I was TD though I might argue the event does not need to be 2 days and a 3 round one-dayer would do the trick, or 2 rounds plus a final 9.

1st round- Four cards of 4 (seeded), stroke play,top score on each card advances.
2nd round advancing card winners play seeded match play 1v1, winners advance to final
3rd round 18 or 9 holes match play delivers a champion

Everyone else can always play out the event to decide order of finish.


Trevor don't sell yourself short, Ides of Match was a fun event :)
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:53 am

After a good solid think about it, I must contradict what I previously stated, 54 holes is good for MPO & MA1, Champion & Plate respectively. Given strong attendance everyone else FPO, MPM, MA2, MJ1/FJ1 will play 36 holes.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:19 am

My concern with 54 holes would be whether there is enough daylight in October. You know your course best however!
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Jester » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:01 am

seamus wrote:In my defense I posted this in September,
seamus wrote:Who will be hosting Nationals in '17?
Is the TD for Nationals in '17 interested in deviating from the normal format?
Yes, you did say that, and can you post the link to the rest of the thread please?

I hope this is already apparent, merely saying in the past you would like to experiment with the event format does not equal permission to do so when awarded the event - unless of course those were specific conditions granted by the DoC/ND and I'm out of the loop.

I'm always keen to hear new ideas that progress our sport, I like it even better when those things do feel forced upon us.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:48 am

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2014&p=24427&hilit= ... mat#p24427

The thread opens with Charlie stating
Charlie Mead wrote:I logged in to the Forum expecting there to be a strand for Nationals and couldn't find one so have started this off - hope that is OK with everyone. I want to see if there are any set plans or decisions made as to the format for Nationals so I can plan my time in best way possible.

I am expecting the normal matchplay format for the Top 16. There may also be the less 'normal' Not the top 16 in a format that is usually decided close to the event due to uncertainty about numbers.

However, I would like to re-introduce the idea I and some others put forward at the beginning of the season - which is to have a Nationals Matchplay event for each of the Divisions competed for on the BDGA Tour. This would then include, say, the following:

Open - Top 16
Women -Top 8
Masters -Top 8
Ams -Top 8
Int Ams -Top 8
Juniors -Top 8

That would be a field of 56 players which would make the event larger, more viable financially and more competitive. It would also provide much needed focus on the top of each division at the season end. It could also mean that some divisions would be able to compete over one day instead of two where numbers made that possible.

Some divisions may not reach their maximum but would still allow a format that would allow an 18 hole course to be far more full than previously.

I think if players have put in a huge effort to attend multiple Tour events in their Divisions that they should be given a showcase oppportunity at the end of the season to compete in a head-to-head with their rivals. I also think it would be good to have a decision on this asap and hopefully before Mendip so it can be announced as early as possible.
As always I find value in your opinion Jester, it seems though this is the year of "voting with your feet" as I've heard many times by members of the Bdga Board. Specific conditions or format were never brought to my attention when we applied to host. It is our intention to host the largest Nationals on record and motivate Loch Tay to install hard surface tee pads among other amenities.
bruce wrote:My concern with 54 holes would be whether there is enough daylight in October. You know your course best however!
For two divisions only, it'll work.

I must reiterate, if we can host a Nationals event matching the divisions of the British Championships and British Open please consider sanctioning this event as part of the Bdga Tour '17/'18 season.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by LostMeow » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:14 pm

Hi Seamus,

Phil is extremely busy with work but I've discussed this with him and am responding partly on his behalf.

Firstly I want to make very clear that we are grateful to you for stepping up to run the Nationals matchplay tournament.

However, we do not wish to make changes to the 'top 16' part of the event at this time. If this was not clear to you when you bid for the event, we apologise. There has been some speculation (e.g. earlier thread) about potential changes, but the two-day, four-round top 16 format remains the way that we will crown a BDGA matchplay champion. The small tweak we have made is to make qualification via rating*, so no matter which BDGA division someone played in (Open, Masters, Women etc), they have the opportunity to qualify for the top 16 - this removes concerns about how Masters etc could qualify for the top 16. The format is to be unaltered.

In future seasons, with good and rigorous debate (and, even better, with evidence), we could make changes to how the Nationals event ran, but I don't think it likely that it will devolve to being TD's choice each year; just as the hosts of the US Open, or Ryder Cup, or whatever, don't get free rein to make up their own new format.

Beyond the 'top 16' you are free to add whatever you want for other players to compete in.

On the issue of whether it is a 'sanctioned' tournament in terms of awarding points: Phil has made it clear in his documentation that only stroke play tournaments can award BDGA points; however, as (i) we didn't realise that matchplay tournaments could be awarded PDGA points in the same way s stroke play, and (ii) Nationals 2017 is part of the next season (2017/2018), we do feel that provisionally we could allow this.

*we will be specifying that players qualify by being BDGA members and having played in at least four BDGA tournaments in the preceding season.
Tom
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by LostMeow » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:29 pm

bruce wrote:The 3 day format is something I've been considering for a while and I think will happen sooner or later, if only for increased field size.
As a teacher, I'm wholly opposed to this, unless they all happen in the holidays!
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:48 pm

LostMeow wrote:
bruce wrote:The 3 day format is something I've been considering for a while and I think will happen sooner or later, if only for increased field size.
As a teacher, I'm wholly opposed to this, unless they all happen in the holidays!
There are some people who have to work weekends, them's the breaks I'm afraid! If it gets to the point that I can get 144 players registered I can run groups of 4 golf start from hole 1 every 10 minutes from 9am-3pm for a 6pm finish on both Fri & Sat. Cut to top 72 for Sunday and run the same golf start 9-12 for a 3pm finish, the top cards of each division forming the last set of groups.

You need more leave for Mull, and I'll take just as much for Dunbar!

We should probably take ongoing format discussions off the Nationals thread though...
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:56 pm

Thanks for your comments Tom and I look forward to our next round but I am sorry as well, the only thing up for debate on the Nationals format is the best way to host a one day event. I was granted Nationals given a certain set of rules and have accepted that criteria going forward, I would expect the Bdga to not deviate from its contracts. Feel free to "Vote with your feet" get with others to boycott the event and prove me wrong but don't make things up. The Nationals format doesn't have a precedence to rely on nor a document to refer too, so to state Nationals is this or that holds no water. Our one day Nationals at Loch Tay is not a radical idea, it is actually more inclusive and has also been discussed and proposed for quite some time.
Changing the the rules mid season is a huge mistake and will only lead to loss of credibility for the Association.
I highly recommend this be a discussion for 2018/2019 season. I feel the same regarding the four event minimum aspect you are proposing, it's a great idea and I would happily back it for the '18/'19 Nationals.

Thanks, once again I look forward to our next round.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:07 pm

Sorry Seamus, but you're wrong here. The only changes to the tour format, which include Nationals, are detailed in Phil's proposal. Nationals format is unchanged in that proposal, and is therefore unchanged.

Reacting with 'tough cookies, I'm doing it my way, boycott if you wish' is a spectacularly unhelpful response.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:15 pm

No worries Bruce, Thanks for your opinion is helping me evolve the event.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Jester » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:28 pm

seamus wrote:Changing the the rules mid season is a huge mistake and will only lead to loss of credibility for the Association.
Is this irony? :roll: There is clearly no loss of credibility to the Association for keeping Nationals in the established format (until such time that they agree a change would be the correct action and invite tournament bids on that basis). Your insistence however that you have a mandate for change, simply because you are hosting the event, is the mistake. Please don't go down that path and ask people to 'vote with their feet'. There's clearly no need for this!
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:58 am

Jester, I understand why you disagree. This has nothing to do with irony or mandate and has everything to do with not only honoring agreements as stated but most importantly moving forward at unprecedented times for our sport in the UK on an event that has a recent history of format experimentation.
The below list of events confirms we are indeed in unparalleled times and as TD I feel a one day event with multiple divisions is more appealing and will ultimately lead to a larger more inclusive enjoyable event.
Has Nationals ever been so book ended with tournament competition?

World Team Disc Golf Championships - Essex 23-27th August 17 Charlie Mead
British Championships Creeksea 2/3rd September Phil Wood
breath......
Rubber Biscuit 9th September 17 Seamus Scanlon
The 10th Croydon Cyclone 16/17th Sept 17 Tom 'no' Lowes 'puttz'
Burnlaw 23/24th Sept 17 Chris O'B
Dinton Pastures 24th Sept Russ Westwood
Masters at Quarry Park 30th Sept/1st Oct 2017 Sue Underwood (Masters only event)
Oct 7th Nationals
Oct 8th Quaich Tour Season Ender


I think it's already a pretty awesome looking competitive and healthy calendar. I image in this time frame, Mid-August thru end of Oct, MODS will add 2/3+ events and SET and SEMS Tours will most likely add to this as well making it more competitively awesomer.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Jester » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:26 am

seamus wrote:Jester, I understand why you disagree. This has nothing to do with irony or mandate and has everything to do with not only honoring agreements as stated but most importantly moving forward at unprecedented times for our sport in the UK on an event that has a recent history of format experimentation.
On what basis can you possibly believe that to be true? Where exactly are you getting your information that it 'has a recent history of format experimentation'? The format hasn't changed in 14 years. It has always been a two day event, and other than a few seasons in the early 00s when a 'World Cup groups and knock-out' format was tried, 4 rounds straight knockout has always been the format. That is what everyone expects, and unless agreed prior that is the format that has to run. It's not a case of 'voting with feet'. This is not a local one-dayer that there are several other options for - this is one of the BDGA's major events with a necessary attendance for players who want to go for the title. Please, mate, see some sense.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:37 am

I have two things to say, Firstly have you ever considered you are in the minority on this one? and secondly 14 years at our age is recent history :lol:
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Jester » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:01 am

I have been in the minority many a time, and when a vote goes the other way I go along with it. That's democracy.

But right now, this particular case it is not a vote and the Board have made clear their position. The Nationals TD does not have the right to alter the format after the event has been awarded. If you were ever under that impression, I would have thought Tom's response and gracious apology earlier would have cleared that up.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:05 am

seamus wrote:I have two things to say, Firstly have you ever considered you are in the minority on this one? and secondly 14 years at our age is recent history :lol:
1) He's not.

2) 14 years in DG terms is an eternity, approaching half the life of the sport.

3) There have been no complaints, no suggestions (other than yours) that the T16 format has any need to change. Sure, the format for the rest of the tournament field, the not-the-top-16, has morphed and been played with and I utterly support you doing your utmost to make the weekend as attractive as possible to those players. By all means have a 1-day world cup matchplay event for the Ams and a 1 day stroke play event the following day. But is it going to make any material difference to your weekend plans to allow 16 players, just 4 groups, to play out the T16 in a very well loved and understood matchplay format that has stood the test of time not only in DG but also across the ball golf world?
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:37 pm

Jester wrote:The Nationals TD does not have the right to alter the format after the event has been awarded
There is no such document.
bruce wrote:14 years in DG terms is an eternity
If you think about it dog years you might already have an epitaph.

Why in your opinion does the Masters division (MPM) not deserve it's own match play title?
Why in your opinion do the Amateur divisions (MA1, MA2) not deserve their own match play title?

As a follow up;
Charlie Mead wrote:However, I would like to re-introduce the idea I and some others put forward at the beginning of the season - which is to have a Nationals Matchplay event for each of the Divisions competed for on the BDGA Tour. This would then include, say, the following:

Open - Top 16
Women -Top 8
Masters -Top 8
Ams -Top 8
Int Ams -Top 8
Juniors -Top 8

Some divisions may not reach their maximum but would still allow a format that would allow an 18 hole course to be far more full than previously.
Problem is the Open division top 16 encompasses not only MPO but the best players in FPO, MPM, MA1 and maybe into MJ1 so for now an event offering divisions for Nationals Match Play is a one day event. If we could attract 6/8 MPG's I wouldn't hesitate to offer this group the option of a title.
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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Trevor » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:28 pm

This is a genuine question and I'm not trying to fan the flames.

Other than historical reasons is there a reason the format cannot be different? Why not try something different? if it dosen't work than the BDGA has the evidence that it needs to keep the traditional format in the future.

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Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by BOF » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:18 am

Keep going, guys, this makes great reading after a long day at work!

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