Bdga National Match Play Championships

Does what it says on the tin!
seamus
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: North Berwick
Contact:

Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:25 pm

Bdga National Match Play Championships
October 7th - 8th 2017
Highland Lodges, Loch Tay
Milton Morenish Estate, Killin FK21 8TY

http://www.lochtay-vacations.co.uk/


- Nationals
Top 16 UK Pdga rated players invited
Champion from MPO division only

4X18 Match Play
Top 16 UK Pdga rated players invited

- Not the Nationals
MA1 - MA2
2X18 World Cup Format



World Cup Format:
On each hole, for each person in your group that you score better than, you get a point. In each round, you are only competing against the other players on your card.

Round 1:
Foursomes seeded by Pdga rating - Groups 3

Round 2:
Seeded by 1st Round score - Groups of 4



More information to follow.
Last edited by seamus on Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
Back to back, chicken shack.

ReBoot Disc Golf
www.rebootdiscgolf.com

seamus
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: North Berwick
Contact:

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:32 pm

The above post is a rough draft of the Nationals we will host at Loch Tay. I know October is a long way off but it is January and best time to hash this stuff out.
A few weeks ago Bruce indirectly mentioned the above on Facebook, which I appreciate btw, and I started thinking about the format.
The basic idea is to have each division of 8 seeded just as every Nationals in the past 1 v 8 etc by Pdga rating and after the second round is complete we’ll have our final 2 from each division, probably 2 cards, that will play a 6 hole Match play divisional Final in front of a crowd. Hopefully exciting stuff, which should be videoed as well, hint -hint.
This is the way I will be doing things I am not suggesting this is the way it should be done every year.
Now here is the big food for thought – If hosting divisional match play championships every year will be the norm than I would like to see if Bdga funds could be used to purchase the trophies that will be handed off year after year.

For the sake of proving a full weekend, as I know the history of Nationals is a two-day event, we will be hosting Dbls on Friday (6th) afternoon and our Quaich Tour season ender on the Sunday the 8th, Pdga C-tier/ Bdga Tour pending approval. Both Nationals and the season ender events will be £12/£15 entry fee. If you noticed last year we were able to add £200 in cash & prizes, mostly prizes, to our season ender by way of spending our accumulated player fees and we would be happy to have you all join us for your fair share.

For all intents and purposes I would be interested to see this event also be on the Bdga Tour but I accept that the rule that states Bdga events are stroke play only. If by some chance between seasons this is discussed I would certainly appreciate it.
Please consider this event as a Bdga event.
If Nationals is outside the scope of the Bdga I would recommend that Pdga division standards apply, this would assist in filling each 2x18 match play division to 8 players.

What say you?
Back to back, chicken shack.

ReBoot Disc Golf
www.rebootdiscgolf.com

User avatar
BaggerBlakehill
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:16 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by BaggerBlakehill » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:49 pm

Sounds fun to me. I'll hope to be there for sure
Still suffering from early wood

BDGA# 1112
PDGA# 61657

User avatar
LostMeow
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:34 pm
Location: London

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by LostMeow » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:52 am

Hi Seamus,
thanks for taking on the organisation of this. For the Nationals, changing it from top 16 to top 8 will likely disappoint one or two folks (perhaps up to 8 people will be disappointed?!) but if you really want it all done in one day then I guess that's the way to do it. Perhaps there was a sense (from Bruce suggesting the idea) that the first two rounds of the top 16 were a bit of a drag for the top 8 players - I don't know.

In the future I guess the DoC may wish to specify exactly the format for Nationals, to avoid setting a pattern that the TD has free rein to adapt it each year, which I gather used to happen and became confusing for players.

For trophies, there is already a splendid perpetual Nationals trophy, engraved with all of the winners over the years. I suppose if we are going to permanently introduce FPO and MPM Nationals divisions there should be corresponding trophies.
seamus wrote:
For all intents and purposes I would be interested to see this event also be on the Bdga Tour but I accept that the rule that states Bdga events are stroke play only. If by some chance between seasons this is discussed I would certainly appreciate it.
Please consider this event as a Bdga event.
It is definitely a BDGA event. No question. One of our three 'showcase' events, in fact - Nationals, British Open and British Championships. As such, no tournaments will be sanctioned on the same weekend.

However, as regards it being on the 'tour'...our rule about tournaments being strokeplay is because we will be using the PDGA points in our points race towards the British Championships. Perhaps if you reported the final rankings to the PDGA, the points would still be calculated? (I'm genuinely not sure of this.) Or you could calculate them yourself, I guess. Is your reason for asking for this so that you can attract more MA1/MA2 etc players to your World Cup format (which sounds really interesting, btw)?

In future, I suppose if we could show that PDGA points can be calculated for matchplay tournaments in a similar way to strokeplay tournaments, we could allow these to be part of the 'tour'.
Tom
ND

bruce
Posts: 2581
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:32 am

A clarification Seamus, I think you're suggesting the Sunday event is strokeplay?

If so I can't see any reason why this couldn't be an event in the new BDGA season, the Champs are the season closer so any event after that could qualify.

This seems quite an attractive format to me, you have effectively 3 distinct events, Friday doubles, Sat British Matchplay champs, Sunday BDGA tour 1-day event. As they are separate players have the choice to play 1, 2 or 3 days.

For the record I don't recall disparaging the early rounds of T16. Having previously lost in the first round that would be a bit rich!
[Standard post disclaimer] My posts are never intended to undermine the work of the Board or individuals putting in effort to grow the sport, they are my honest thoughts on the best ways to grow the game

BDGA: 145
PDGA: 8824

User avatar
LostMeow
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:34 pm
Location: London

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by LostMeow » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:18 pm

bruce wrote:A clarification Seamus, I think you're suggesting the Sunday event is strokeplay?

If so I can't see any reason why this couldn't be an event in the new BDGA season, the Champs are the season closer so any event after that could qualify.

This seems quite an attractive format to me, you have effectively 3 distinct events, Friday doubles, Sat British Matchplay champs, Sunday BDGA tour 1-day event. As they are separate players have the choice to play 1, 2 or 3 days.

For the record I don't recall disparaging the early rounds of T16. Having previously lost in the first round that would be a bit rich!
Oh yes, the Sunday strokeplay can absolutely be on the 'tour'. But I'm not sure that's what Seamus meant.

Sorry to have taken your name in vain there - I assumed such as Seamus said the idea had come (indirectly) from you.

I did get the feeling at last year's Nationals (Manchester) that whilst it exposed the flaws in our previous qualification system (BDGA points then rating), the overall quality of the top 16 was the highest it had been for some time and the upsets made it quite exciting.
Tom
ND

david.pearson
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by david.pearson » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:52 pm

May I suggest that previous match play champions automatically be invited? Like "The Master's" golf tournament. Food for thought.

User avatar
LostMeow
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:34 pm
Location: London

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by LostMeow » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:19 pm

david.pearson wrote:May I suggest that previous match play champions automatically be invited? Like "The Master's" golf tournament. Food for thought.
Vested interest there, Dave? :)

Presume you mean the previous year's champion; not all the previous champions!
Tom
ND

david.pearson
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by david.pearson » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:29 pm

I may have a vested interest... :D , but I really did mean all previous champions be invited. I'll be trying my best to qualify for this year's match play, but whether or not I can make it up to Loch Tay with my family is about 50/50.

User avatar
LostMeow
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:34 pm
Location: London

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by LostMeow » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:25 pm

david.pearson wrote:I really did mean all previous champions be invited.
Well, I'm afraid that doesn't really work - as the tournament necessarily has a limited number of places, if all previous winners get an automatic invitation, it ends up with more and more of those places taken up only by previous winners. Eventually there will be more previous winners than places at the tournament, which is a big problem, not to mention the fact that there would be no spaces for anyone else to compete. Even now we have at least 6 previous winners of the title (off the top of my head: Derek, Charlie, Jester, Dan, James and you) - with Seamus cutting it down to only top 8, that would only leave 2 places for other competitors...not really reasonable, surely??

I can see it working if the previous year's winner gets an invite - that way they get to defend their title, whether their rating is in the top 8, or 16, or not.

As I said above, the format probably needs codifying so that these issues are clear.
Tom
ND

seamus
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: North Berwick
Contact:

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:18 am

OK, Thanks for the opinions.
I believe I may have overstepped, perhaps the tournament listed above in the first post is the second step. What I mean is that right now Nationals is played by 16 players and as Tom mentioned this field of 16 is continuing to get stronger year after year. I'd like to think at some point as the bench of players runs deeper the tournament will naturally expand due to the growth of our sport. So therefore the next logical move forward is two divisions of 16, Open - Amateur, not four divisions of 8, Open - Masters - Amateur - Amateur 2.

How about this? At registration we will offer MPO – MPM, if two divisions of >8 do not materialize then MPM will be folded back into MPO and we’ll use the World Cup format.
We will offer MA1 – MA2, if two divisions of >8 do not materialize then MA2 will be folded into MA1 and we’ll use the World Cup format.
As a side note I’d like to think we could offer an FPO and MJ1/FJ1 divisions for a minimum of 4 players (no final necessary) and recognize the winner of these divisions.

Cheers Nick hope you can attend.
Dave we'll announce your arrival so you can use the Nationals trophy as a hood ornament as you parade down the long driveway into Loch Tay.
Back to back, chicken shack.

ReBoot Disc Golf
www.rebootdiscgolf.com

seamus
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: North Berwick
Contact:

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:32 am

bruce wrote:A clarification Seamus, I think you're suggesting the Sunday event is strokeplay?
yes.
LostMeow wrote: However, as regards it being on the 'tour'...our rule about tournaments being strokeplay is because we will be using the PDGA points in our points race towards the British Championships. Perhaps if you reported the final rankings to the PDGA, the points would still be calculated? (I'm genuinely not sure of this.) Or you could calculate them yourself, I guess. Is your reason for asking for this so that you can attract more MA1/MA2 etc players to your World Cup format (which sounds really interesting, btw)?
Yes, my reasoning is to host the largest event possible. As far as I'm aware there is no difference between Pdga XC-tier and C-tier in points allocated, not that I can find anyway. If the Bdga allows Nationals to be a part of the overall points race we will happily sanction the event Pdga XC-tier.
LostMeow wrote:Even now we have at least 6 previous winners of the title
Perhaps offering MPM now and MPG in the future, Nationals would be more attractive to previous champions and competitors.
Back to back, chicken shack.

ReBoot Disc Golf
www.rebootdiscgolf.com

Phil Wood
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:28 pm
Location: London

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:07 am

LostMeow wrote:Hi Seamus,

In the future I guess the DoC may wish to specify exactly the format for Nationals, to avoid setting a pattern that the TD has free rein to adapt it each year, which I gather used to happen and became confusing for players.

Cut from 2017 tour proposal as voted on by the membership....

What about the Nationals Matchplay event?

A National Matchplay event would be scheduled at the start of each season (October), based purely on player rating (a move away from current tour finishing position). Invites would be sent to the top 16 rated players in the UK.

If there was sufficient interest we could run a plate match play event for players 17-32/33-48 etc.



yes fuller details will be in the TD doc explaining how to manage all scenarios out, but this should give sufficient outline for time being.

Phil

seamus
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: North Berwick
Contact:

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:58 pm

Thanks for clarifying Phil.
Back to back, chicken shack.

ReBoot Disc Golf
www.rebootdiscgolf.com

User avatar
Jester
Posts: 1782
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:10 am

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Jester » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:57 am

I’m not following this thread closely, apologies if I have misunderstood.

Context: when the Top 16 Nationals Match Play started in 1996 it was a 2-day event, 4 rounds of 18 straight knock format.

In the early 00s, a ‘World Cup’ format of group play followed by knockout was experimented with a few years. This was 4 pools of 4 (3x12 on the Saturday) followed by 2x18 knockout on Sunday. This was found to be overcomplicated for both players and TDs, and lead to unsatisfactory results and less upsets against seed. The group play protected better players from a bad match as they still had two other opportunities on the Saturday to win the group and make a top 4 semi slot.

I myself benefited from this one year – I lost my first match, drew the second and won the third yet still somehow managed to win the pool and get into the semis. Rubbish. Such safety nets should not be part of an event like Nationals, and it was during my tenure as DoC c.12 years ago that I changed the format back to 4 round straight knockout. Since then to be National champ the task has been clear and simple – win four matches and be last man (or woman) standing.

I understand and appreciate looking into other formats for the purposes of growing tournament attendance – but I strongly feel these should be in ADDITION to the current top 16 format, not ALTERNATIVES. A 2-round, one-day Nationals is not a substantial enough test of player ability, esp on the mental game, to crown a worthy champion.

Again apologies if I’ve misunderstood, but I do not recall any previous suggestion, discussion or decision that making the Top16 Match Play the season opener would mean a change in the event format.
Jester
BDGA #128
PDGA #8817
------------------------------------------------------
Croydon DGC: Hyzer Cup Champions 08/09, 13/14

bruce
Posts: 2581
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:27 pm

Jester wrote: A 2-round, one-day Nationals is not a substantial enough test of player ability, esp on the mental game, to crown a worthy champion.

Again apologies if I’ve misunderstood, but I do not recall any previous suggestion, discussion or decision that making the Top16 Match Play the season opener would mean a change in the event format.
I'm not quite sure this is what Seamus is proposing, although it is clearly a format change.

As I understand it the T16 would be seeded into 4 pools. I imagine that will be:
1, 8, 9 & 16
2, 7, 10 & 15
3, 6, 11 & 14
4, 5, 12, & 13

You play a single round of 18 with your entire pool, playing matchplay against 3 people simultaneously (I know this can negate some of the tactical elements of MP). These pools are then finished, and are reordered into T8, B8:
T8
1, 4, 5 & 8
2, 3, 6 & 7

B8
9, 12, 13 & 16
10, 11, 14 & 15
Rinse and repeat round 1.

You then have a final 9 holes for position, 1 v 2, 3 v 4 etc.

That's a much more substantial test than 2*18, arguably more than 4*18 as you have to beat 6 people before the final. My main concerns are the tactical point mentioned above, plus the 9 hole 'final' seems a bit of a let down. Perhaps an adjustment to make each round 12 holes, or the pools 12 holes and the final 18, if it can be managed in the time. The question is, is it worth it in order to squeeze it into one day? Bearing in mind the payoff is also having a regular BDGA strokeplay event in the same weekend?
[Standard post disclaimer] My posts are never intended to undermine the work of the Board or individuals putting in effort to grow the sport, they are my honest thoughts on the best ways to grow the game

BDGA: 145
PDGA: 8824

User avatar
Jester
Posts: 1782
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:10 am

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Jester » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:39 pm

Phil or Tom - before this goes any further, could you please confirm the situation with Nationals format? I was not under the impression it was up for change. If it is to stay as-is, please could we have a confirming statement for the avoidance of doubt? Then this chat can continue along hypothetical lines. Thanks.
Jester
BDGA #128
PDGA #8817
------------------------------------------------------
Croydon DGC: Hyzer Cup Champions 08/09, 13/14

seamus
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: North Berwick
Contact:

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by seamus » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:49 pm

bruce wrote:plus the 9 hole 'final' seems a bit of a let down.
Why do you think its a let down?
Jester wrote:A 2-round, one-day Nationals is not a substantial enough test of player ability, esp on the mental game, to crown a worthy champion.
In order to win the cup you'll have to better 7 players not just 4 as is the traditional format. The National Champion will play up to 42 holes in a single day of match play, that is equal the excitement in half the time and with the addition of the Final 6 (or 9 maybe) it will be in front of a large group of your peers. Win Win.
Back to back, chicken shack.

ReBoot Disc Golf
www.rebootdiscgolf.com

User avatar
Jester
Posts: 1782
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:10 am

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by Jester » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:55 pm

Phil or Tom - before this goes any further, could you please confirm the situation with Nationals format? I was not under the impression it was up for change. If it is to stay as-is, please could we have a confirming statement for the avoidance of doubt? Then this chat can continue along hypothetical lines. Thanks.
Jester
BDGA #128
PDGA #8817
------------------------------------------------------
Croydon DGC: Hyzer Cup Champions 08/09, 13/14

bruce
Posts: 2581
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Bdga National Match Play Championships

Post by bruce » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:29 pm

Hypothetically, as I'm pretty sure the intent is for the format to remain as is for this year...
seamus wrote:Why do you think its a let down?
As a finalist I'd feel shortchanged. It's a bit like getting to the final of Wimbledon after a series of 5 set matches and then having the final as a 1 set shootout. In what will be theoretically the tightest match of the event, only 9 holes (or 6!) wouldn't allow for any swings, any building of pressure. Just doesn't work for me personally.
seamus wrote:In order to win the cup you'll have to better 7 players not just 4 as is the traditional format. The National Champion will play up to 42 holes in a single day of match play, that is equal the excitement in half the time and with the addition of the Final 6 (or 9 maybe) it will be in front of a large group of your peers. Win Win.
As I say, if you went 12 - 12 - 18 it's still 42 holes, and I'd let everyone play the last round for final positions. I do have some issue with the idea of playing multiple opponents at the same time however, it adds an unwelcome element of lottery into the process. Say I'm 1 up on Jester on the last hole, and all square with James. James Drives OB but Jester parks it. Now if I was just playing James, I'd maybe lay up to guarantee the par, forcing him to try and park his re-tee to save the half. But in order to preserve my win against Jester I have to take on the birdie try. The beauty of the matchplay format is that it's one-on-one, it loses something when it's many-on-many.

This is not a criticism of trying new things by the way, just my opinion.

Perhaps the answer is a 3-day event? Friday & Sat Matchplay, Sunday strokeplay. The 3 day format is something I've been considering for a while and I think will happen sooner or later, if only for increased field size.
[Standard post disclaimer] My posts are never intended to undermine the work of the Board or individuals putting in effort to grow the sport, they are my honest thoughts on the best ways to grow the game

BDGA: 145
PDGA: 8824

Post Reply