BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

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LostMeow
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by LostMeow » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:13 pm

Del wrote:Well summarised Tom.
Thanks! :)
Del wrote:There are merits and demerits to all systems proposed so far.
I'm still satisfied with the current proposal...
Del wrote:I think that if you put some minimum points hurdle on the AM1 qualification to British Championships that could keep people honest. Bruce suggested minimum of 4 events, but 4 dead flat lasts and a total of 4 points is still going to trump a good AM2 points tally.
I'm actually less worried about this. The message I hope the structure gives is: for the best chance of qualifying for the BCs, play in MA1. We don't know yet how many Amateur places there will be at the BCs - it may end up being fewer than the total number of MA1 points scorers, or it may end up being more than the total number. In the former scenario, the player that entered 4 tournaments in MA1, came last in all of them and came bottom of the MA1 rankings doesn't qualify, and rightly so, because he/she wasn't as good as other MA1 players; in the latter scenario, he/she does qualify - if the player further down the MA2 list who didn't qualify finds that unfair, they should have backed themselves to play in MA1 a few times.

I hope what I just wrote there makes sense...

Del wrote:The players who span divisions will fall between stalls, splitting their points, and that problem remains. Not all of them will be bothered about points anyway. Depending on what TD's offer, many players could have points in multiple divisions.
As I said somewhere else (maybe on Facebook - it's becoming difficult to keep track...), for players who played in MA1 and then drop down, they would be offered a choice:

Keep your position in the higher division section of the table and ignore the points you score in lower divisions, or
Go back to the points you had in the lower division and continue to add to them (losing the points accrued in the higher division).

Either of those I'm fine with.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:35 pm

One more spanner for the works. You need I think four people for a division to run. How many BT one day tournaments will have fields big enough to guarantee ma 1, 2, 3 4. + masters + open +fpo.

Where do the others go? Bumped up a division? No choice of their own players miss out on the division they wanted to play in?
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by LostMeow » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:38 pm

Not quite correct. From PDGA website:

"PDGA guidelines stipulate that events offering registration for a specific division must hold that division if there are four or more registered competitors. TDs will often make exceptions for the Women’s and Junior divisions to encourage attendance as participation may typically be less than four players."

i.e. you can run a division even if it has one player. You must run a division if four or more players have registered for it.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:18 pm

I've seen this argument before and it is endless.
As far as I'm concerned the sun has set on planning for '17. I certainly recognize the imperfect nature of the new system at hand, which is the best system you have btw, and I enjoy watching the engagement of opinions (especially new) but 16 days until teeing off on the new season is no time to voice opposition, allow the Boards decisions to move forward unabated. Personally I was rather mouthy in emails and on this board in Sept/Oct but decisions were made and its time to move on. I hope that the opinions of all are noted and adjustments can be implemented for next season, otherwise the actions of the board dare I say may seem slightly Novice.
I look forward to voicing my opinion again in June/July when discussions should begin for the upcoming season starting in September '17.
LostMeow wrote:Then you also have situations with players without PDGA ratings (*cough* Sam Thomas) entering the division and subsequently being shown to be rated way above everyone else. I think everyone (perhaps bar Sam) agreed that that was ridiculous.
Sorry Tom but I find this statement repugnant and quite becoming of false perceptions within the sport in the UK. There is absolutely no rationale for the expectation that the MA1 division is not deserving of the best score in an event.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:16 am

One last try, if this won't work then I will have to do all as ma1. I can't find any other way.

We have a redundant division with the changes, ma2.

I have needed the buffer of that to allow season long competition and keep people within their divisions.

Allow me that buffer still.

Ma2 is run but we put a cap on it at 870 and below at the start of the season (same as we always have) we allow people to stay in though once they are in (it's unlikely anyone will go over 935 by the end of the season) Same goes for ma3 but we have a cap at 820, with the PDga limit actually 80 points above.

It allows a more meaningful points race for the bdga lower divisions, it allows me to incorporate the mods system without a workaround.

I don't think there are any downsides, I'm very tired though so there may well be, apart from this thing of encouraging people to move up which quite frankly why do we need to do? I like playing up lots of people don't.

Yes it's 16 days before the new season, you can see back in the thread the guidance we had to work with and plan around, at the start of the week new information came up causing this discussion and highlighting issues that need to be addressed.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by LostMeow » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:47 am

seamus wrote:
LostMeow wrote:Then you also have situations with players without PDGA ratings (*cough* Sam Thomas) entering the division and subsequently being shown to be rated way above everyone else. I think everyone (perhaps bar Sam) agreed that that was ridiculous.
Sorry Tom but I find this statement repugnant and quite becoming of false perceptions within the sport in the UK. There is absolutely no rationale for the expectation that the MA1 division is not deserving of the best score in an event.
"Repugnant"! Wow. I'm not sure you have the full facts there. Just for clarity:

Our top amateur division last year had a ratings cap of 920: if you were rated below 920 at the start of the season, or when you joined the season, you could play in it. There was a points race all season for players in this division. Sam Thomas arrived on the scene with 4 events to go, at Myerscough, without a PDGA rating. He entered the Adv Am division, understandably, because that had been what he was used to playing in the US - we had no regulation to deal with a player who had no rating. He won the tournament, despite a pretty stunning performance by Joe O'Brien. Sam subsequently got his PDGA rating, which was 967 - a whole 47 points above the ratings cap. However, he continued playing in the Adv Am division at the next 2 events, and his rating continued to rise, showing that the initial 967 wasn't even a fluke. He was technically abiding by the rules we had at the time, but it exposed a huge flaw in the system, and showed a major problem with having a ratings cap on the top Am division.

On a separate note: hello? I'm me. You know me. We've met in person many times and shared rounds of golf. I'm pretty sure I'm not 'repugnant'! I also try and conduct myself online in the same way I do in person. Do I go around saying repugnant things? I certainly hope not!
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by LostMeow » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:03 am

rhatton1 wrote:Ma2 is run but we put a cap on it at 870 and below at the start of the season (same as we always have) we allow people to stay in though once they are in (it's unlikely anyone will go over 935 by the end of the season) Same goes for ma3 but we have a cap at 820, with the PDga limit actually 80 points above.
Because there's no lower limit on ratings within divisions I think this could work from your side if you have those entry requirements for Am divisions in your MODS points race. They don't contravene PDGA division guidelines - an 855-rated player is in the PDGA's MA3 division but you'd be forcing them to play MA2. They then, as you say, have considerable room for improvement within that division, whilst still being allowed to play in it, because the ratings cap for MA2 is 935.

Make it clear that Ams wanting to qualify for BCs need to enter MA1.

What you can say to players is: for the series-long competition, you need to enter this division. (e.g. player above: you need to enter MA2, because if you enter MA3 there's a chance you'll go over the ratings cap (900) mid-season and have to move up)

It will perhaps artificially pack the ranks of MA2s in the BDGA points, but I'm not as bothered by that as we'll be hoping the serious contenders for BCs play in MA1.

Does that work for you without us having to change the country-wide system we're about to introduce?
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:27 am

I should have been more clear, I said "this statement is repugnant" , you were just the last person in a long line of folks to make it. Of course I don't feel that way about you, sorry to be misconstrued and I look forward to our next round.
LostMeow wrote:Sam Thomas arrived on the scene with 4 events to go, at Myerscough, without a PDGA rating. He entered the Adv Am division, understandably, because that had been what he was used to playing in the US - we had no regulation to deal with a player who had no rating. He won the tournament, despite a pretty stunning performance by Joe O'Brien.
And the general consensus is that Sam robbed Joe of the MA1 title at Myerscough, and I've heard the same thing regarding the MODS title. Where as I see it Joe was just bested by another amateur player and in an almighty performance took second. I've never seen anything like it, joking is one thing but this mindset needs to vanish. Unless it has recently changed the Pdga suggests a player considers Open after achieving a 970 rating.
rhatton1 wrote:Ma2 is run but we put a cap on it at 870 and below at the start of the season (same as we always have) we allow people to stay in though once they are in (it's unlikely anyone will go over 935 by the end of the season) Same goes for ma3 but we have a cap at 820, with the Pdga limit actually 80 points above.

I've been saying since I arrived 4 years ago that bump rules serve no purpose other than to satisfy some statistical satisfaction. Don't dumb down the Pdga divisions to satisfy the player base, players are smart enough and should be free enough to choose for themselves. If someone wants to move across divisions and subsequently removes themselves from the opportunity too compete in the BC, well shame on them your requirements are in writing.
In a few years players in MA1, maybe Masters will have an understanding of how many points they need in order to qualify for the BC and should be allowed to dabble in other divisions. As a Master player (after attaining a sufficient amount of points to qualify for the BC) I might play in MPO to add to the Pro purse and have a round with the top players, or join MA1 see if I can play well enough to get some top card experience. I'm not sequestering points from a division I don't belong in just simply moving around, which is not a bad thing. Or maybe I'll stay in the Masters division because we all know we have the best Ibuprofen.
I hope this is something that will be considered for the '17/'18 season.

May I recommend for the time being that Richard just submit two reports, an official TD report to the Pdga that reflects the event he wants to run and a second report that satisfies the Bdga and won't rewrite the plan so close to tee time.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:31 am

The PDGa ratings system is As it is for the same reasons as I am doing. Their breaks are what best served their player base when introduced, our base is different, trying to shoehorn the two together doesn't work. It clearly doesn't work looking at the 170 UK players we have and their abilities currently. What you're railing against is what they do at the PDGa anyway just at different breaks (substitute ma1 at myerscough for ma2)

Our only failing here has been to never have an only amateur divison, the new system corrects that. That was never a problem in the past anyway as we didn't pay cash in open so effectively our top open divison was ma1 by any other name.with the introduction of cash something had to change and it has.

There is desire for season long competition in lower divisions. Especially in a tour series. In order for that to happen and have any value, players must be allowed to start and finish in the same divison, if they please. At mods some like Jordan moved up, Sam the best of the lot stayed down, I was in two minds to move him, I think leaving him there actually bought the best out of the other players in the division after the initial shock, which is why I didn't.

I don't believe I can submit two reports without a huge amount of messing around as Phil is taking details straight from PDGa.

I am not sure if what you are suggesting works Tom. If I block someone from ma2 at mods because their rating is over 870 when they play their first event, doesn't this stop them being part of the season long race on the Brit tour? Can I do that? If I offer the division, unless we are all playing to a cap don't we have to let all 934 players and below into it?

Please understand I'm not doing this Just to be a &£@&, I have set up and sold the system on one basis but a major part of that, possibly the biggest part, is offering season long protected divisons in at least two am divisons. To the majority of players playing, bdga issues will be an afterthought not the main draw.

Things that attract players to my events currently in orderish:
Fun
PDGa ratings
Season long comp
Getting a taste of competition
Playing new courses
Organised structure


I expect the bdga points race to be no more than middle of this list. I suspect the club idea if it works may actually come higher to the bulk of players attending one dayers.

The point is, to the people that the points race really matters, they will play anyway, they're addicts. I'm trying to get the next gen hooked on the gateway drug, the bdga race is the harder stuff once they're already selling their grans for plastic.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by LostMeow » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:01 pm

seamus wrote:And the general consensus is that Sam robbed Joe of the MA1 title at Myerscough, and I've heard the same thing regarding the MODS title. Where as I see it Joe was just bested by another amateur player and in an almighty performance took second. I've never seen anything like it, joking is one thing but this mindset needs to vanish.
No. That wasn't the gripe. The gripe was that he continued to play in Adv Am despite having conclusively shown himself to have a rating well above the limit.

The BDGA Adv Am division had* a ratings cap of 920. Players with ratings higher than 920 were not allowed in the division unless they started the season with a rating below 920. To have a player in there with a rating of 970 was not in the spirit of the division, and was only allowed by a technicality because he didn't have a rating when he joined. It was ridiculous but it did serve to expose one of the flaws in having a rating ceiling in the division.

*from now on it won't
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Del » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:47 pm

Seamus, I think your comments are out of order. I understand that your view is based on how the PDGA system is set up, that is your mindset. You probably think the BDGA has been misguided in trying to set up tournament structure the way we have done, for many years with 3 main divisions yielding sensible numbers in each division. Until recently no tour events paid prize money, and the highest division really would have been equivalent to AM1, however a small number of players competed in Eurotour events and became Pro. Now we could have adopted PDGA divisions and I could have competed for many years in a division of 3 people. Instead we had an Open division with lower rated players bumped up, but with no prize money and no greater "Pro" entry fees, so they were still amateur, this was not an issue for us.
I should point out that this was not a British peculiarity, it was the USA which had the strange (to us) notion that we could increase entry fees, play for each others money and call ourselves professionals before we reached a size where prize money tournaments made sense, and of course the USA reached that point way ahead of Europe.
I said that this was not a peculiarly British thing, and if you look at the ratings of European players you will see that people classify as Open when they have much lower ratings. Lets look at how many Open division players have ratings of under 900:
California - just 15 out of 300
Switzerland 17 out of 42
Germany 23 out of 86
Netherlands 4 out of 10
Sweden 73 out of 383
We don't pressure people to declare themselves as Open, we just made them play in the appropriate division based on their ability.

Germany is a really interesting case if you search for Amateur players you only get Advanced Masters Advanced GM and Juniors. That reflects the fact that they don't run AM1, AM2, AM3. You play Open, Masters , GM, Women or Juniors.
This ended up being way longer than intended, but hopefully interesting.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:49 pm

I understand there are two sides to every coin, Del. I don't think the Bdga has been misguided I think its been wired over too many times like an old house to the point where you have to understand 10/15 years of "why it was done" before the intentions of that wiring can be comprehended. I am happy to see the changes taking place now.

I apologize for getting off topic, if I see an opportunity to grow the sport adding an MA2 division to an event I hope the Bdga will have a plan to support it or allow me to submit a spreadsheet as a TD report.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:27 am

Using the MODs tour as an exemplar for how 2017 might pan out under the Tiered model. Caveat that MODs only has MA1 & 2, not 3 as tracked standings (unless I’m missing something), and no MPM so I’ve had to guess a little, but the ideas still work.

The MODS standings do exactly what the BDGA Tiered model proposes, it lists Open players 1-22, MA1 1-23, then MA2 1-54. The only variance is that the proposal was to number the MA2 players as 24-77 in an overall Amateur classification; this difference in description is arbitrary, just as the 21st best football club in the English league system is the 1st team in the Championship.

Taking the MODs numbers as representative, there are 22 Open players and 77 Am. From BDGA stats we can assume about 12 Masters.
Assuming 72 player capacity, and 16 spots ring fenced for FPO/MJ1, the remaining 56 spots could be allocated as 12 Open, 6 Masters & 38 Amateur. On that basis all the MA1 players would be invited, plus the top 15 MA2. To me players have little incentive to ‘game’ this system, as someone who can’t break into the top 15 MA2 stands no chance at the BCs, and would have to invest significant time/money/effort to play 4 events in MA1 to jump the rankings.

Now lets look at the all MA1 model. The most obvious thing it does is removes protection from the best players. Lets say MODs has an event featuring 15 MA1 and 15 MA2 (and they handily finish in score order). All reported as MA1 the winner scores 150 points, top MA2 scores 75. Now Flyers DG host a local event at Mt Edgecombe, but as a newer club their breakdown is 4 MA1, 6 MA2 & 20 MA3. All reported as MA1 the winner still receives 150 points, but the top MA2 gets 130 points, the top MA3 gets 100. By homogenising the divisions you lose any ability to compare like with like around the country.

Now I recognise that currently players have been intentionally playing up in the smaller competitions, and that would also mess with the system in the same way. But all I see as a need to fix that is for there to be some guidance as to divisional ratings. Not ratings boundaries, as if someone wants to move down and give themselves less chance of qualifying for the title race I can’t see any reason not to allow it, but a suggested minimum standard for moving up. So I would simply say the suggested minimum standard for MA1 is 870, for MA2 is 820.

Stick with what the BDGA is proposing, give it a chance. It’s 8 months, it’s not going to break anyone’s bank, and calling it non-functional without ever giving it a chance is not fair.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:43 pm

I think we're on the same page here i just need some clarification/guidance please.

If I run Ma2, bottom bracket sounds sensible, can I stop anyone from 870 - 934 registering for that division at an event, can I push them into MA1 instead?

I don't forsee it being a problem with the normal players playing on the MODS tour, but you imagine the situation at Cold Ashby, where Ken and Chris have battled it out all season, it's coming down to the wire, either can win, both need to place well within the extra points categories.

Suddenly 5 920 rated players from Croydon sign up for their first MODS event as MA2, likely to take 1 - 5 and the main extra points boosters, Chris wins the overall tour by default. Do I have to let them play in MA2 or can I force to MA1 before the event?
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:46 pm

The other Tours (MODS,Quaich, SET, SEM) will likely continue through the summer and/or into Autumn as the new Bdga Tour reaches its conclusion at the end of June '17. Any adjustments to divisions as it pertains to the points structure for the new Bdga Tour Season 17/18 will force us to make a lesser of evils decision; do we change our rules to match mid-Tour? or do we adjust accordingly when our Tours finish?
The probable adjustments may well be benign, just something to think about.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:51 pm

rhatton1 wrote:I think we're on the same page here i just need some clarification/guidance please.

If I run Ma2, bottom bracket sounds sensible, can I stop anyone from 870 - 934 registering for that division at an event, can I push them into MA1 instead?

I don't forsee it being a problem with the normal players playing on the MODS tour, but you imagine the situation at Cold Ashby, where Ken and Chris have battled it out all season, it's coming down to the wire, either can win, both need to place well within the extra points categories.

Suddenly 5 920 rated players from Croydon sign up for their first MODS event as MA2, likely to take 1 - 5 and the main extra points boosters, Chris wins the overall tour by default. Do I have to let them play in MA2 or can I force to MA1 before the event?
I think what you are describing (or frankly anything like it) is a highly improbable scenario, so improbable as to be not worth legislating against. You might see a few players in the 880 range want to hang around in MA2 a bit longer before moving up, just as you may get a few non-pro Open players drop back into MA1, but all that does is continue the gradual process of creeping our (soft) ratings boundaries up towards the (hard) PDGA ones. That may well take 5-10 years, but I don't see a need for the BDGA to legislate it any longer. As a TD you can strongly suggest to anyone who does try to sandbag that they should play up, and explain why. Generally folks are reasonable people (at least when not arguing on the internet :P)
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:57 am

bruce wrote:I meant a 'proposed dates' one for TD's to use. I think the TD-to-TD communication piece is vital also, the way I would see it working is: TD adds proposed date to (private) calendar, posts on the FB group their intent to host an event on that date and some details (Tier, part of local tour etc), and asks if anyone has any potential clashes or thoughts. After a bit of chatter, it's agreed and the TD registers it with the PDGA/BDGA and it gets added to the public calendar.
Phil, I really think we need some kind of shared space for TDs (private Facebook group?) to put proposed dates out to each other. We're already seeing potential clashes with Manchester and Whitcombe maybe on the same weekend (not that that is necessarily the end of the world), and at the moment each TD is operating in their own bubble.

Events are just being posted here and on Facebook, I don't see them added to any global calendars either.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Cooper » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:01 am

Bedworth has a Calendar:
https://bedworthdiscgolf.wordpress.com/calendar/

Trying to keep this up-to-date with all tournament dates, but I'm not going to be checking daily, probably monthly and when we start to organise some dates. If there was something central i could tap into which would give me prompts of when dates were being suggested and when being confirmed it would be much eaiser for me to keep this up to date more regularly.

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by LostMeow » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:35 pm

bruce wrote:Phil, I really think we need some kind of shared space for TDs (private Facebook group?) to put proposed dates out to each other. We're already seeing potential clashes with Manchester and Whitcombe maybe on the same weekend (not that that is necessarily the end of the world), and at the moment each TD is operating in their own bubble.

Events are just being posted here and on Facebook, I don't see them added to any global calendars either.
I've created a private FB group (apologies to those who don't use FB, but it was the easiest and quickest solution at this time - if you want to propose tournament dates, please go through me or Phil).

I have also updated the website page at www.bdga.org.uk/tour with the current events. If you want me to add websites etc, please let me know.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:41 pm

Cheers Tom!

What does the colour coding signify? Couldn't quite work it out
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