BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:19 pm

bruce wrote:
A couple of things there. Benefits: Other than the financial incentive, it's true the BDGA still needs to see if it can get the insurance benefit sorted. The Club League idea would also be a big pull I think and points from all divisions would apply to that. .
Agreed, possibly, if the club thing works out, I hope it does I love the idea. Points would still apply if I bumped everyone into MA1.
bruce wrote:I'd also say you can't have your cake and eat it here, you kicked off on the idea of compulsory membership and the resulting pitiful £1 per event benefit to BDGA membership is largely down to yourself! The better compromise position would have been £2 IMO.
Wuh? why is this having a go at me? I'm supporting the idea and actively persuading new members, the above was feedback I'm getting from people I'm encouraging to join, not my own opinion, the point being that still£10 even with perceived benefits is something people will think about, not one person, not two, lots, and so I am looking at ways to negate their issue without upsetting the system.

You want people to move up, I'm moving people up? Whilst letting them actually play in a tour in the division they want to. It's a win win for all parties.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:07 pm

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you don't realise your plan massively upsets the system! If you do the MA1 plan, all MODs players by default will be ahead in the rankings from any player playing MA2 or below anywhere else in the country. So any other event, my British Open included, will be forced to do the same thing unless we massive disadvantage anyone playing MA2 or lower. At a stroke you render the Amateur divisional structure a complete non-entity, and remove the concept of Int Am and Rec from the UK. Except in the MODs where you'll get Mavis to run a separate points race so MODs can keep what you've removed from the rest of the UK!

I wasn't having a go at you, merely pointing out that if people are seeing a perceived lack of benefit you have to accept a degree of culpability. As above, the 'fix' is worse than the issue. Let the BDGA worry about incentives to entice members, if a few do not sign up it won't be the apocalypse...

Lastly, I don't want people to move up, I want them to play in the division that is appropriate to them. First time players are not MA1, rarely even 10 events in are they MA1
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:27 am

The same stroke that is created by a one day event set up a day before the BC qualifiers close and all the players that want to qualify play that one event in MA1

The system is flawed. It has good intentions, but the intentions don't actually give the players anything more than lipservice. Points gained in 2,3 and 4 are ultimately useless if 30 (or however many allocations there will be at BC's for amateurs) play in ma1 at some point in the season.

If there aren't AM2,3,4 divisions at BC's then there's no point in giving a season long race. Especially with people moving liquidly between divisions. It's meaningless.
bruce wrote: First time players are not MA1, rarely even 10 events in are they MA1
None of our "Amateurs" are!!! That's the issue, the system fits a larger player base and a more skilled player base than we currently have. Phils known that since he started looking at this.

All TD's can report amateurs as MA1 but still offer different divisions within their tournament, one or two day. Finals become a bit trickier, but division finals outside of the top group just aren't reported, (not sure what happens to a lower division player who has cumulative score good enough to get him into the top group final in this instance, i'm sure there is an uncomplicated workaround)

Everyone then has a ranking system, they can see exactly where they are in the pack against all other amateurs, it works as a qualifier, players still get competitive divisions at tournaments. The one down side is they don't get a career win stat against their name on PDGA for the ma4 win. Probably not the end of the world.

It's easy for everyone to understand, it's easy to administer
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:34 am

rhatton1 wrote: quite frankly the word "novice" is pretty demeaning to players that IMO are a lot better than that, it's not a great marketing word, i'm surprised the PDGA have stuck with it!
I never use the term Novice, pointing out someones inexperience can be considered rude, "recreational" is much better received.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Del » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:14 am

Bruce says
Lastly, I don't want people to move up, I want them to play in the division that is appropriate to them.
This is at odds with the system you support which says that no matter how rubbish you are, if you get one single point as an Advanced Am it will put you ahead of every person who has played in a lower division. Richard is seeking a way around that fundamental weakness, but even if he were to do as you say, it does not stop people individually bucking the system.

The system that I proposed does not totally stop this either, because an AD1 will always get more points than an AD2 in any given event, but it does very significantly reduce the incentive to cheat the system by playing in a higher division than is appropriate.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:16 am

Rich, it's giving MA2/3/4 significantly more than last season. Only MA1 even got points last year, at least this year there is a proposal to include the others in a ranking system that is entirely consistent with every other divisional system in sporting history!

Not only that but if players stay within their chosen division they well get to see who was the 'points champion'. While it's not a trophied position I can see it being something those divisions strive for.

Yes, players could choose to move up late in the season and be eligible for qualification. That's a personal choice and a personal risk of not making it. That's very different to a tour organiser intentionally screwing over the entire process, and ruining it for everyone else. Without ever even giving it a chance, condemning it even in its trial season.

Your point about MA1 is nonsense. Players know where they sit regardless of ratings boundaries. MA1 is nothing other than the top non-pro division
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:24 am

Del, your proposed system only rewards those who go to the most events, and doesn't fix the supposed problem. A player can still simply play up and gather more points
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:55 am

bruce wrote:That's very different to a tour organiser intentionally screwing over the entire process, and ruining it for everyone else. Without ever even giving it a chance, condemning it even in its trial season.
OK, stop it now. Each post has a personal attack on me, have a debate not an argument.

I am not trying to screw anything over what I'm suggesting doing doesn't screw the system it works for all parties and was basically the system as sold to me by Phil way back when he first bought it up.

A pointless points race is a pointless race it's no more of an offering than that that was not there last year, it doesn't tell you anything. Being listed on the MA1 ranking offers more than last year, the top "Ints" whilst playing in a division below locally in the tournament would be close to the top of the MA1 ladder nationally. Locally there is competitive competition, nationally there is a tour ranking all amateurs.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:14 am

Can you not see how your 'fix' completely destroys the concept of Int Am and Rec for all other events?
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:37 am

No, not at all, all events can do it exactly the same way? This whole system has been about TD discretion to have divisions to suit the needs of the players they see attending but also work into a bigger picture.

Pdga report looks like this:

OPEN 5 players

FPO 2 players

MPO 4 players

MJ1 0 players

MA1 40 players

Actual event on the day looks like this:

OPEN 10 players (5 MA1 Brit Tour competitors opt to play Open division on the day)

FPO 0 players (division wasn't big enough to run)

MPO 4 players

MJ1 0 players

MA1 12 (two FPO players drop in,)

MA2 15

MA3 10

MA4



It's all we will be doing, the only difference we have is that this then feeds into a season long series as well giving the desired points race in a format that works. Yes it is easier for us as we don't do finals, I'm not quite sure how finals would work in this instance, I'm sure it would be workable.

Gives you a decision to make on whether you break cards to make divisions in the last round or keep it all on score. You can always be overtaken unknowingly by someone on the card behind you anyway so this shouldn't make too big a difference if you put it into tournament divisions.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:45 am

Exactly! You've forced the hand of every other TD in the country to do it your way. You've removed all choice from other TDs, as if we do it a different way anyone not playing MA1 suffers.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:05 am

Last post as I'm busy basically from now until Sunday.

You've made 2 assumptions that I can see:
1) that most Ams will want to play up into MA1 to be eligible for BCs
2) that a lot of players not eligible for BCs would not bother with BDGA membership

My counter points are:
To 1) it didn't happen last year, when only MA1 were title eligible.
To 2) that is actually the BDGAs problem, not yours, and is a supposition based on limited anecdotal evidence

My issues with your fix are:
To 1) your solution is to force all players to move up and remove that choice from the player. By doing so you also force every other TD to do the same in order to put their Ams on a level playing field.
To 2) the MA2/3 players further down the unified MA1 ranking will have no more chance of qualifying for BCs, so there is no additional incentive to join
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:53 am

bruce wrote:Exactly! You've forced the hand of every other TD in the country to do it your way. You've removed all choice from other TDs, as if we do it a different way anyone not playing MA1 suffers.
But what is the choice i'm removing? A Pointless points race with no real structure or meaning? I'm not stopping yu running an Int or Rec division, I will be running Ints and Rec divisions, it's the whole point! I'm preempting what will happen anyway, just at the start of the season rather than just before the BC's when a few people that didn't see how to game it lose out. the system doesn't work if it's that open to abuse!
bruce wrote: To 2) that is actually the BDGAs problem, not yours,
I , you, every other member is the BDGA, encouraging more people to sign up is a good thing for the sport in general. I'm in a fortunate position to make it even more affordable for players and to give it even more of a draw, surely that's a good thing for everyone?
bruce wrote: To 1) it didn't happen last year, when only MA1 were title eligible.
Getting the chance to compete in an individual Marquee event is totally different to being a part or not of a season long tour. You can't compare the two. Only 3 or 4 people have the time and resource (let alone the skill) to possibly have the chance of winning a season long tour, for anyone outside of the top 8 or so Power stats and Amstats have always been essentially meaningless. A lot more people have the chance to win one Marquee event.
bruce wrote: 1) that most Ams will want to play up into MA1 to be eligible for BCs
bruce wrote: and is a supposition based on limited anecdotal evidence
No BC's qualification isn't the main draw for all ams to become BDGA members, but for six different people considering the different discounted packages i've offered, (I think all non members although haven't checked) , it has been in the last week. That's close to 10% of the current membership, and closer to 20% of the current Am membership. It's more than anecdotal. Honestly it surprised me that people were still considering £8 ( reduced offer amount) when you get the added bonus £1 off for every event you play in to still be an issue but there you go!
bruce wrote: To 1) your solution is to force all players to move up and remove that choice from the player.


If they want to qualify for BC's that isn't a choice i'm forcing them to make, they will have to do it as others will. They can still play all events in a competitive division it's just the reporting of the results that is different. MA2,3 and 4 season long points races are meaningless with forced crossing of divisions all events counting and the totally varying nature of the events and fields they just don't make sense, they don't reflect anything and I would be amazed if they factored into anyones decision making as a positive thing.

If everyone is ranked in one Amateur status table it's so much clearer, easier to manage, easier to maintain and easier to understand. We never had an INT season long tour when it was a system even better prepared for it than this one.
bruce wrote: To 2) the MA2/3 players further down the unified MA1 ranking will have no more chance of qualifying for BCs, so there is no additional incentive to join
That's circular, it's the same situation in either way it's done?
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:59 am

One MA1 also makes the idea of inter club competitions much easier to manage.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:09 pm

Replying in passing. I believe your idea violates the PDGA sanctioning agreement
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:51 pm

... and forcing all 920+ players into Open wasn't and not paying out in Open or player packs in am and, and and, don't open that can of worms.

I can't actually see the issue looking through the agreement of reporting all as MA1 and then awarding prizes at my own arbitrary cut offs.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:42 pm

Going back to your benefit thing, I think you're actually reducing the appeal of the BDGA to MA2/3. The proposed method had all divisions listed in order, making a points champion for lower divisions visible and a viable target. Under the all-MA1 approach it will be a several hundred long list of players, and a meaningless number along side most people's names.

You're denying that target to the UK as a whole, while still protecting your own MODs version.

I had already suggested a way to prevent individuals gaming the system, by having a minimum event threshold for qualification. 4 events in a division before they are eligible to use those points for BC qualification would totally prevent gaming it.

BTW, I intend to run 2 or 3 MODs events at QP, MPO only. I'll give a prize to every place that ends in a 1 though, so everyone has something to play for... I'm sure you're fine with that.

I'm also going to report the British Open results entirely as MPO. The BC spot allocation is to be based on number of players in each division, so the more I inflate the MPO numbers the more chance Open players have of qualifying.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:09 pm

bruce wrote:The proposed method had all divisions listed in order, making a points champion for lower divisions visible and a viable target. .
If the ratings boundary is not protected a points race becomes irrelevant.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by LostMeow » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:38 pm

Thought I'd try and summarise the thought process that has got us (BDGA) to where we are now, in the hope of clarifying why certain decisions were made...

Premise

There is appetite for a season-long Amateur competition.

Problem (describing where we were last season)

A top Amateur division that has a rating ceiling (no ratings above x) doesn’t work:
If the players are set in the division at the beginning of the season, you have a situation where one player who is one rating point below the boundary can play in it, and another 2 ratings points higher can’t. Those ratings could easily change one month later to be the other way round. That is so arbitrary I won’t accept it as feasible.
If the players are not set in the division at the beginning of the season (i.e. can move in and out depending on ratings update) then that’s even worse.
Then you also have situations with players without PDGA ratings (*cough* Sam Thomas) entering the division and subsequently being shown to be rated way above everyone else. I think everyone (perhaps bar Sam) agreed that that was ridiculous.

1st Solution

The Amateur division has to have no ceiling.

The Story Continues

But we want to have more Amateur divisions, so that lower-rated players have a sense of who to compete against. They don’t all want to compete in the same divisions.

2nd Solution

Introduce more Am divisions

Next Problem

How to count points towards BC qualification? The lower Am divisions award fewer points per place, but by playing more events you can add more points to your total - therefore someone could foreseeably top the Am rankings by playing in lots of tournaments at a lower level. That does not achieve the desired effect of sorting out the best amateurs for qualification at BCs.

And Another Problem

The PDGA Am division boundaries are quite generous, so all our ‘top’ Ams could actually play in MA2, and some even in MA3. How to get those wanting to compete for BC qualification ‘out of the way’ of the amateurs who are more interested in competing amongst themselves?

3rd Solution

Only allow top Am division (MA1) to score points in the race. (Similar to 2016 season)

Next Problem

Less perceived value for players in lower divisions - they’re paying the same BDGA subs, why shouldn’t they get points? Also some desire for competition between amateurs at lower level.

4th Solution

(Where we’ve got to now). All divisions collect points but divisions ranked first, so that playing in a higher division gives you a place higher in the points table. This hopefully causes the amateurs wanting to compete for BC spots to select the MA1 division.

Next Problem

What if a TD enters all his results in MA1? It will pack the 'upper end' of the Amateur points table with players from that particular series of events, disadvantaging MA1 players at events that aren't doing the same thing.
We can’t stop it, but I might argue it doesn’t actually benefit the lower-rated amateurs, who won’t get points in the divisions they might play other tournaments in, and therefore won’t be able to see how they’re doing in the points table relative to similar competition.

5th Solution

??? Ask TD nicely not to do it?
Tom
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Del » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:25 pm

Well summarised Tom.
There are merits and demerits to all systems proposed so far.
I think that if you put some minimum points hurdle on the AM1 qualification to British Championships that could keep people honest. Bruce suggested minimum of 4 events, but 4 dead flat lasts and a total of 4 points is still going to trump a good AM2 points tally.
The players who span divisions will fall between stalls, splitting their points, and that problem remains. Not all of them will be bothered about points anyway. Depending on what TD's offer, many players could have points in multiple divisions.
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