BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

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BaggerBlakehill
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by BaggerBlakehill » Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:09 pm

Phil Wood wrote:
BaggerBlakehill wrote:Great idea, I hope this gets approved at the agm.

Being pedantic. Tour structure does not need membership approval, there doesn't have to be a vote on this.

To qualify that, im not saying this is a done deal, this is now the opportunity for all to air views, concerns and thoughts all to be taken into consideration for the 2017 season (or 2017/18 season if we head that way).

unless im feeling evil... :twisted:
Oh ok, I guess I thought the idea of this being taken to the agm before being put into action meant you were looking for members to give it the nod. I'm actually very pleased not only with the proposed system but almost more that something is actually being implemented. There seems to have been a lot of back and forth discussions about how things could be improved but rarely does anything actually change. That may be unfair, I don't know, but it's certainly how it feels to me. Nice work Phil
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Del » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:06 pm

I think the stipulation on running all divisions at all events is unnecessary and limiting. Why not allow an Am only event, or a Pro only event, or a Masters only or womens event? Your points system only records points for the specific division, so it makes no difference to any given division whether there are other divisions also competing at the same venue. The Bowling Green Open has traditionally been one of the biggest events in the World and has Open and Am events on separate weekends - open players help staff the Am event and vice-versa for the Pro event. A Masters event has been proposed by Sue U for 2017, why should points at that event be excluded from the British Tour?
<quote> "All events must offer MPO, MPM, FPO, MA1, MA2, MA3, MA4 and MJ1 divisions with boundaries set out be the PDGA" <end quote>

Opening up the tour to all events (except the divisional ones mentioned above) will have the advantage of inclusivity, but it does mean that the BDGA competition structure will be playing no role in raising standards. We forego the opportunity to require TD's to ensure safe teepads or publicity in local papers or any other desirable goals. One could of course argue that we have not been particularly effective in driving forward standards, and that players will vote with their entry fees.

I don't think the National Championships should have divisions for all the different Amateur divisions because it will deter people from moving up to the appropriate division.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:29 pm

Del, i think my wording can be clarified on this. As i dont plan on omitting Masters/pro/am only events if thats what a TD wants to run.

I will rephrase, because if it reads in this manner - and re-reading for the 100th time, its not clear. TDs can run any event or any size shape scale they want as long as its single stroke play.

Where applicable the relevant division parameters must be played. If its a event that is open to all (not just the division), then the TD must respect the wishes of the player to play in any of the divisions aligned to the bdga tour (MPO, MPM, FPO, MA1, MA2, MA3, MA4 and MJ1). If the TD has openly stated that at x event only MPO, MA2 division are playing, then so be it.

Players will vote with their feet.

"I don't think the National Championships should have divisions for all the different Amateur divisions because it will deter people from moving up to the appropriate division."

what encourages them to move up now? how is this any different from current circumstance? peer pressure and seasonal ratings improvement are the only two sticks we have to get players to move up.

"the BDGA competition structure will be playing no role in raising standards. " I disagree with this Del. We are aiming on raising the bar at the top end of the sport and setting an attainable standard to local events to be considered on a National scale, i fail to see how this isnt driving up standards.

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:42 pm

seamus wrote:Since it is an experimental type of year I would rather think the Bdga would allow the Euro Tour to be included in '17 to see if anyone is excluded or complains given the ET TD has tools to deal with such issues. (If given the opportunity again) We could host a 3 day event for up to 150 players easily accommodating all that want to attend. Your example of why has never happened and will not be the case here in the UK for many years. Excluding the ET from the Bdga Tour serves no purpose, we're probably best to agree on disagreeing.
Seamus, I fail to see how an event where over 50% (bit of an educated guess) of the field potentially bolster the points available to those able to attend make it fair, its artificial inflation of points for one event. Though im more than happy to have others views influence my thinking on this, and be convinced otherwise.

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:51 pm

Phil Wood wrote:
seamus wrote:Since it is an experimental type of year I would rather think the Bdga would allow the Euro Tour to be included in '17 to see if anyone is excluded or complains given the ET TD has tools to deal with such issues. (If given the opportunity again) We could host a 3 day event for up to 150 players easily accommodating all that want to attend. Your example of why has never happened and will not be the case here in the UK for many years. Excluding the ET from the Bdga Tour serves no purpose, we're probably best to agree on disagreeing.
Seamus, I fail to see how an event where over 50% (bit of an educated guess) of the field potentially bolster the points available to those able to attend make it fair, its artificial inflation of points for one event. Though im more than happy to have others views influence my thinking on this, and be convinced otherwise.
Can this be open to situation rather than a hard and fast rule? If Seamus thinks he can put on an event that has enough spaces for any potential players that want to play (150 sounds like it would be more than enough currently) plus meeting the PDGA sign ups requirements, surely it would be a win win to have this as part of the points race?

Edit* but possibly having to change in future as attendances grow at all events.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:45 pm

Phil Wood wrote:
seamus wrote:
Seamus, I fail to see how an event where over 50% (bit of an educated guess) of the field potentially bolster the points available to those able to attend make it fair, its artificial inflation of points for one event. Though im more than happy to have others views influence my thinking on this, and be convinced otherwise.
That's why we need to agree to disagree because I don't see how an event with the highest level of competition within our community of disc golf cannot be included.
It's like "disc golf Brexit" :) We're happy to use the rules set forth by Pdga Europe, the points system is so good we'll base our entire Tour structure around it, the ratings and division structure are excellent too but don't think about coming over here to take our points, that's not fair........ Other than closed Bdga National events you can't stop traveling players from attending Bdga events and earning points.

On a serious note, excluding the Euro Tour '17 from the Bdga Tour removes the best possible measuring stick for choosing a team for EDGC '18.

It's a busy day for you Phil, Thanks for answering my questions.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by BOF » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:36 pm

Nationals Matchplay
Invites would be sent to the top 16 rated players in the UK.
Is that Top 16 rated players regardless of division or is it Open only, as currently exists (apart from the single Master and Am player invited as 15th and 16th seed), please?

Great ideas for changes, although I can't pretend to understand the Points sytem yet!

I'd be happy to see specific-division-only tournaments to be included - as Del points out, their inclusion would in no way bias any particular division since all points are awarded within the division rather than across multiple divisions,

Definitely looking forward to the Masters Event already!

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:15 am

Top 16 rated players regardless of division.

Should the Am(MA1)/Master champ be guaranteed a spot? what about the FPO champ? Why not just the top rated players in the country??

Points system appears confusing but ultimately is relatively straight forward. You get points for every player you beat, you get more points if that's in a higher tiered event. There is a scaling factor.

If a TD wants to run a division only event, then great! go for it!

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:43 am

seamus wrote:That's why we need to agree to disagree because I don't see how an event with the highest level of competition within our community of disc golf cannot be included.
It's like "disc golf Brexit" :) We're happy to use the rules set forth by Pdga Europe, the points system is so good we'll base our entire Tour structure around it, the ratings and division structure are excellent too but don't think about coming over here to take our points, that's not fair........ Other than closed Bdga National events you can't stop traveling players from attending Bdga events and earning points.


I'm not sure you're getting the point here Seamus. The general Open attendance at BDGA events is currently is in the 10-20 range, meaning there would be 50-100 points up for grabs for 1st place at a C-tier, a 1.5 times that for B-tier, double for A-tier. At Dunbar this year I got 200 points for playing distinctly average golf and finishing 7th of all the British golfers. That's 40% of my points total this year at arguably my weakest performance.

It's not about players "coming over here to take our points", it's about an artificial inflation at that event caused by the influx of extra players. You're right that we cannot prevent players from visiting (Croydon had a 5 or so boost from Iceland), but when we know in advance that the ET event will skew the results so heavily, I think it's right to mitigate that.
seamus wrote:On a serious note, excluding the Euro Tour '17 from the Bdga Tour removes the best possible measuring stick for choosing a team for EDGC '18.
I think that's highly debatable. Whilst a one-off performance is a perfectly valid way of crowning a champion, if you're looking to build the highest quality team performance over a number of events/season would seem a more reliable indicator, e.g. by rating?
Del wrote:the BDGA competition structure will be playing no role in raising standards.
Actually, the points factors I mentioned above (http://www.pdga.com/files/2016_division ... actors.pdf) will automatically encourage this. Pushing for B or A-tier status at events will mean more points available to players, making the event more attractive.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:06 am

Del wrote:I don't think the National Championships should have divisions for all the different Amateur divisions because it will deter people from moving up to the appropriate division.
I would agree with this, the Champs should be restricted to simply Open, Masters, Women, Junior and a single Amateur division. I have never seen the value in a points race for the split amateur divisions.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:15 am

rhatton1 wrote:The only conflict I see is I intend to run an ams and ints season long comp in the MODS so once you are in you can choose to stay there for the season even if your rating goes above the cut off, what happens in the BDGA format if a player is competing in Ints in the MODS but ams in the BDGA model, is this even an issue?
Just a note Rich, you will get away with this under the BDGA rating breaks, but the PDGA will still enforce a hard cap for MA2 or 935. Doubt it's a factor, but worth knowing.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:06 am

I do get the point Bruce, I'm just not long winded about it. Pdga points earned in a ET event are not artificially inflated, they are what they are, not including them is the only artificial aspect.
The QT has a much smaller player base than the the Bdga Tour and we were able to overcome the massive points total included in the ET event to crown our division winners, the cream still rose to the top. Yes we had some ET players represented in our top 10 but that's how the cards read in '16 and we have a plan to fairly counteract those affects in '17, we're inclusive of all events though.

Phil did you ever consider a "Points" champion?
The player regardless of division that earns the most points in or outside of the UK? This might be something worth celebrating.

There are some other great points being raised here and I'm enjoying reading the debate.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:15 am

yes, my initial thoughts were to have a points champion, but on further thought and discussion we downgraded this.

Winning the points is a noteable achievement, that player has invested time and effort into amassing the highest number. However, as it is possible that it might be the person that has the most free time, money etc to attend and get the points rather than winning important comps i dont see how it can be seen at the same level as say the tour championship winner.

I would propose an "order of merit" for the points winners, so we recognise and remember who won it. But it is not held at the same level of esteem.

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:18 am

'Fairly counteract' may be the answer here. One way to fairly counteract it is to exclude that event from the points series. Another may be to apply a points modifier of some sort to bring it into the system. But at the end of the day I feel like the European Tour events are significantly distinct from the British Tour events, and recognising this shouldn't be a big deal. I don't think it will impact attendance at ET events to not be in the BDGA points series, they are glorious events in their own right, and part of an entirely distinct points series of their own.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Del » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:23 pm

A couple of things to bear in mind:
1. The British Open is potentially a big draw for overseas players, perhaps not as much as a Eurotour event, but still could be considerable numbers. It will seem odd if we exclude the ET event from points, but double the points for the Open. I know there is a difference in phased elegibility in Pro divisions, but that hasn't been close to applying at previous British ET events.
2. The Open should hopefully attract a huge field, so some thought will need to be given to how to allocate potentially scarce places
3. The matchplay qualification is by rating and this could be quite straightforward, but then again there will inevitably be some case at some point where eligibility has to be defined: there will be a UK national working abroad, or a foreign national living in the UK. Is eligibility based on residency and if so over what time period? Or is it simply BDGA membership at a set point in time, so a highly rated overseas player could join up and play the Matchplay Championships even if they had never competed in the UK before.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by SueU » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:03 pm

Couple of minor questions please:

The proposal says that TDs are entitled to make their event only open to BDGA members.

Does this apply to the British Open and National Matchplay events please? or will there be a pre agreed approach on one or both of these

I can see that you need to be a BDGA member to get points for the British Championships but do you have to be a BDGA member to take part in the British Open and National Matchplay events?

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by bruce » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:21 pm

SueU wrote:Couple of minor questions please:

The proposal says that TDs are entitled to make their event only open to BDGA members.

Does this apply to the British Open and National Matchplay events please? or will there be a pre agreed approach on one or both of these

I can see that you need to be a BDGA member to get points for the British Championships but do you have to be a BDGA member to take part in the British Open and National Matchplay events?
There are a couple of considerations in there. Firstly, the PDGA sanctioning rules state that all PDGA members of good standing should be eligible for PDGA events, unless the event is classified as an X-Tier (http://www.pdga.com/files/2016_tour_standards.pdf). I don't think we are talking about restricting overseas players from attending general events, more that requiring BDGA membership for attendance at some (or all) events may be a desirable route to go down. For the 'invite only' Championships, this X-tier route is clearly the way to go. For general events, I think that current BDGA and/or PDGA membership would be sufficient, and I'd have thought the same to be true for the Open.

Matchplay obviously isn't PDGA sanctioned, so I'd say yes, BDGA membership compulsory. Eligibility from a national perspective needs considering but I'd suggest utilising the criteria used by the European Championships.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by SueU » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:50 pm

Thanks Bruce

And thanks Phil for the proposals Lots to think about both as a player and potential TD :D

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:01 pm

bruce wrote: at the end of the day I feel like the European Tour events are significantly distinct from the British Tour events,
A valid point that was in my blind spot Bruce, it's after all in the name European Tour.
I was more focused on inclusion and the A-tier aspect as it pertains to points earned, not that the attending British players in MPO/FPO would be outnumbered by Europeans rendering their efforts moot on home turf.
It might be worth considering that players in MA1 & MJ1 in the ET may not be outnumbered by European players and could benefit greatly from A-tier points on the Bdga Tour.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Neil M » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:17 pm

Questions may have already been answered so apologies if I've missed this info.

Why would I want my event to be BDGA tour sanctioned?
Is there any fee to BDGA for it being tour sanctioned.
What are the benefits to a club offering a BDGA sanctioned event?
As far as I am aware SDG only has one current BDGA member, also as far as I'm aware the majority of people who attended our recent competition were not BDGA members. So no real reason to involve BDGA at all.
The new chairman made it very clear in his running statement that his vision was focussed very much on the tour rather than development of the sport through other means. What does this mean for small clubs, new players and local events? I'm not sure that tour points are incentive enough to get people to c tier events. For the last 2 years Croydon members (our closest club) have not really supported our event other than a couple of players. Do you think your points will change that?

I appreciate that this comes across as negative and it is not necessarily meant to be as I genuinely think the proposal contains lots of excellent ideas that are an improvement on the existing system.
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