BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

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Phil Wood
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BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:01 am

All,

Plans for the 2017 tour have been put on hold pending the AGm due to tour structure being one topic of debate.

After much consideration and discussion with players and TDs, we have got to an agreed proposal.

I see the proposed tour structure as a great step forward for the BDGA, i hope you agree. Im more than happy to answer/clarify anything if there are any questions.

I hope you all support this proposal and we see more competitive golf played across the country.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18OS ... sp=sharing

Cheers,

Phil

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Trevor » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:14 am

Cool, looks exciting and progressive

Thanks Phil, the board and anyone else who helped with this.

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:42 am

Thanks Phil!

Couple of questions.

Is the rating cap on an event by event basis with the rating current at time of registration or time of event, not held for the full year as previous?

Does this matter? is there an ints/rec points race, or even an ams points race for that matter? I can't work out if the brackets apply only to Open and age/gender protected divisions or to the arbitrary divisions as well?

The only conflict I see is I intend to run an ams and ints season long comp in the MODS so once you are in you can choose to stay there for the season even if your rating goes above the cut off, what happens in the BDGA format if a player is competing in Ints in the MODS but ams in the BDGA model, is this even an issue?

Love the season change. Summer to summer makes so much more sense. I've already looked at making a similar change for the MODS.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:48 am

The Eurotour event will not be on the BDGA points race as sign up protocol would not allow players to complete on a level playing field.

Hi Phil, could you please elaborate on this statement?
If I'm reading it correctly the registration stages set forth by Pdga Europe for the Euro Tour is the issue that creates an unfair system?

I think your proposal is a great step forward, best of luck.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:02 am

rhatton1 wrote: Is the rating cap on an event by event basis with the rating current at time of registration or time of event, not held for the full year as previous?
Division has to stay for the whole season, though I would encourage players to move up to their most competitive division. otherwise we get some unfortunate scenarios - by way of an example, Newbie Int-am has qualified for MA3 championships by playing and winning in that division all year, but on the last event of season his rating has been pushed past 900 and now not eligible to play in the champs. The additional kick in the teeth is that Newbie Int-am hasnt got enough points to qualify for the MA2 champs so isnt invited to attend. Not particularly fair all round, though some might just think tough luck!
rhatton1 wrote:The only conflict I see is I intend to run an ams and ints season long comp in the MODS so once you are in you can choose to stay there for the season even if your rating goes above the cut off, what happens in the BDGA format if a player is competing in Ints in the MODS but ams in the BDGA model, is this even an issue?
I have no concerns what division players compete in for local competitions (MODs, SETs etc), as long as there is clarity from the point of view of event reporting, which division they played in, and that matches up with the players wishes.

By way of another example, at your mod event you have 6 MPO, 2 MA1 and 13MA2. You make the decision locally that MA1 doesnt work for MODs so are not going to run it, so will wrap it into MPO, but if a player specifically wants to play, when it is reported to PDGA it needs to be split out. (even if it means the player only picks up 5 (PDGA) points.)

hope that clarifies?!

Phil

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:17 am

seamus wrote:The Eurotour event will not be on the BDGA points race as sign up protocol would not allow players to complete on a level playing field.

Hi Phil, could you please elaborate on this statement?
If I'm reading it correctly the registration stages set forth by Pdga Europe for the Euro Tour is the issue that creates an unfair system?

I think your proposal is a great step forward, best of luck.
Hi Seamus, yes as the event registration process does not allow GB based players to sign up on a level playing field that makes it unfair. I have no issue European players coming over at all, in fact i hope we continue to attract more! then get them to sign up to bdga membership...

The eurotour is a great series in its own right and i think we are better suited to give it its own clear focus and attention rather than add a BDGA tour overlay in there too.

thanks for the feedback,

Phil

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:42 am

So if I am reading your statement correctly then any tournament that holds spaces for any division will automatically disqualify the event from the Bdga Tour. correct?


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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:44 am

Also on a more inclusive matchplay format I have a model that works up to 128 players over a 2 day tournament which splits into a bowl, plate, cup, shield + another four system.

Seeded by rating you play 9 holes in a group of 4, so 2 different matches going on in each group, at the end of nine holes you split, winner plays winner, loser plays loser. 4 9 hole matches played on the Saturday this way, Sunday sees another 2 x 9 in the morning and then 1 x 18 in the afternoon There is a way of splitting this down to cash (top 4 divisions, top takes 1/2 cash and pays out down to the top 12 of the top 16 next 16 takes 1/2 of remaining and pays out down to top 6 , next group takes 1/2 remaining and pays down to top 2, final group in cahsing side takes remainder and pays out the winner) and trophy/merchandise only in the bowl and plate split. This keeps it interesting for all players up until at least the sunday morning at which point it will be just playing for final position in the afternoon.

Alternatively you have the 64 field version playing another 18 in there on the Sunday instead of 2 x 9. I'm probably going to try out a one day 32 man version forcing another 9 holes in there at some point.

Main issue would be coming up with a quick tiebreak method for draws at the end of 9 holes, it could come down to a sudden death putt off at the hole.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:46 am

Phil Wood wrote:
By way of another example, at your mod event you have 6 MPO, 2 MA1 and 13MA2. You make the decision locally that MA1 doesnt work for MODs so are not going to run it, so will wrap it into MPO, but if a player specifically wants to play, when it is reported to PDGA it needs to be split out. (even if it means the player only picks up 5 (PDGA) points.)

hope that clarifies?!

Phil

Ok i think I get it!
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:49 am

Phil Wood wrote:
Division has to stay for the whole season, though I would encourage players to move up to their most competitive division. otherwise we get some unfortunate scenarios - by way of an example, Newbie Int-am has qualified for MA3 championships by playing and winning in that division all year, but on the last event of season his rating has been pushed past 900 and now not eligible to play in the champs. The additional kick in the teeth is that Newbie Int-am hasnt got enough points to qualify for the MA2 champs so isnt invited to attend. Not particularly fair all round, though some might just think tough luck!
does this only really become an issue once we have full fields? how many positions will be open to the different divisions, will this be based on BDGA membership numbers so Int's likely to have the biggest protected sign ups in the tour champs?

Edit. Apologies missed this bit on the form, thanks for answering anyway!
Last edited by rhatton1 on Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:58 am

seamus wrote:So if I am reading your statement correctly then any tournament that holds spaces for any division will automatically disqualify the event from the Bdga Tour. correct?


Cheers.
Not at all, TDs can run any event they wish and any format they wish (as long as individual stroke play). That includes registration process, unless intentionally discriminatory where the BDGA would intervene.

The British Tour Championships will hold spaces for women and juniors, to encourage attendance in our under represented divisions.

The Eurotour events staggered registration process does not at present align with our player base. Open division with players over 970, get first sign ups and could feasibly pack the field. We don't have that number of open players, most of ours are ~930+ but have accepted cash. appreciate its a low likelyhood but Dan ryan could register to the british eurotour event, in a packed field and potential of lots of tour points, but i might not have the opportunity to. The reason why this, i believe is unfair, is that the field is packed with non BDGA/British touring members - if it was i wouldnt have a leg to stand on and i hope that is a place we one day get to.

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:05 am

rhatton1 wrote:
Phil Wood wrote:
Division has to stay for the whole season, though I would encourage players to move up to their most competitive division. otherwise we get some unfortunate scenarios - by way of an example, Newbie Int-am has qualified for MA3 championships by playing and winning in that division all year, but on the last event of season his rating has been pushed past 900 and now not eligible to play in the champs. The additional kick in the teeth is that Newbie Int-am hasnt got enough points to qualify for the MA2 champs so isnt invited to attend. Not particularly fair all round, though some might just think tough luck!
does this only really become an issue once we have full fields? how many positions will be open to the different divisions, will this be based on BDGA membership numbers so Int's likely to have the biggest protected sign ups in the tour champs?
Whilst local events might not sell out, i full expect the British Champs to sell out. Division size at the champs will be determined by player registration/event attendance through the year. i.e. if MA2 is the most represented division by membership, they would have the largest division at the champs. There will be a protected minimum at the champs for Womens and Juniors.

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:11 am

Great stuff, thanks Phil! For a TD running the event tour champs event if you haven't filled out by a certain stage would it be ok to open to non BDGA members and/or only have the Juniors and womens spaces protected to a certain date, beyond that it's a free for all? Or will this be a totally closed comp?
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:25 am

rhatton1 wrote:Great stuff, thanks Phil! For a TD running the event tour champs event if you haven't filled out by a certain stage would it be ok to open to non BDGA members and/or only have the Juniors and womens spaces protected to a certain date, beyond that it's a free for all? Or will this be a totally closed comp?

good question, womens and juniors spots would be protected until 2 weeks before event - all details like this would be built into a TDs pack (when i get round to writing it.)

If the British Champs did not sell out through BDGA members/points, i need to give this a little thought. My first instinct says closed competition, this is one benefit of being a BDGA member, but with that in mind i wouldnt want to damage a tds pocket by potentially limiting the field. I guess the joy of having the venue set upto 10months in advance folk should know if they can/cant make it well in advance.

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:29 am

Phil Wood wrote:
rhatton1 wrote:Great stuff, thanks Phil! For a TD running the event tour champs event if you haven't filled out by a certain stage would it be ok to open to non BDGA members and/or only have the Juniors and womens spaces protected to a certain date, beyond that it's a free for all? Or will this be a totally closed comp?

good question, womens and juniors spots would be protected until 2 weeks before event - all details like this would be built into a TDs pack (when i get round to writing it.)

If the British Champs did not sell out through BDGA members/points, i need to give this a little thought. My first instinct says closed competition, this is one benefit of being a BDGA member, but with that in mind i wouldnt want to damage a tds pocket by potentially limiting the field. I guess the joy of having the venue set upto 10months in advance folk should know if they can/cant make it well in advance.
My gut feeling says closed make it prestigious and something to work towards, my rational head on says maybe first season have an option to be open if there aren't an agreed amount of participants (agreed between BDGA and board by a certain time) to see how it is taken up, don't want a TD to be out of pocket on it.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:39 am

British Tour Championships - will the BDGA have any say over pricing for this? (wouldn't want people to get priced out of the deciding comp of the year!)

If there are going to be three flagship BDGA events, 2x of which are qualifiers only it feels like the BDGA should have final say and ownership of pricing structures on these (or at least top limits) and Td's will need to budget accordingly in their proposal, all players will know before signing up to the BDGA then and getting involved in the points race that they will be able to afford or save towards the event.

Will this be subsidised in anyway by the BDGA (much like Worlds is by the PDGA) or supported in any other way? - someone hired to video or other such support to really take it to another level.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by BaggerBlakehill » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:45 am

Great idea, I hope this gets approved at the agm.
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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:03 pm

rhatton1 wrote:British Tour Championships - will the BDGA have any say over pricing for this? (wouldn't want people to get priced out of the deciding comp of the year!)

If there are going to be three flagship BDGA events, 2x of which are qualifiers only it feels like the BDGA should have final say and ownership of pricing structures on these (or at least top limits) and Td's will need to budget accordingly in their proposal, all players will know before signing up to the BDGA then and getting involved in the points race that they will be able to afford or save towards the event.

Will this be subsidised in anyway by the BDGA (much like Worlds is by the PDGA) or supported in any other way? - someone hired to video or other such support to really take it to another level.
There will be guidance and upper limits set within the TDs pack (again once written) but ultimate cost/players packs etc will be down to the TD.

Any form of subsidization would need to be discussed with the treasurer and board, so we can understand revenue streams and affordability but i would certainly expect this event to be of a higher profile than the BDGA has seen todate and supported from all corners. This is our show piece.

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:40 pm

BaggerBlakehill wrote:Great idea, I hope this gets approved at the agm.

Being pedantic. Tour structure does not need membership approval, there doesn't have to be a vote on this.

To qualify that, im not saying this is a done deal, this is now the opportunity for all to air views, concerns and thoughts all to be taken into consideration for the 2017 season (or 2017/18 season if we head that way).

unless im feeling evil... :twisted:

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Re: BDGA 2017 Tour proposal

Post by seamus » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:49 pm

Phil Wood wrote:
seamus wrote:So if I am reading your statement correctly then any tournament that holds spaces for any division will automatically disqualify the event from the Bdga Tour. correct?


Cheers.
Not at all, TDs can run any event they wish and any format they wish (as long as individual stroke play). That includes registration process, unless intentionally discriminatory where the BDGA would intervene.

The British Tour Championships will hold spaces for women and juniors, to encourage attendance in our under represented divisions.

The Eurotour events staggered registration process does not at present align with our player base. Open division with players over 970, get first sign ups and could feasibly pack the field. We don't have that number of open players, most of ours are ~930+ but have accepted cash. appreciate its a low likelyhood but Dan ryan could register to the british eurotour event, in a packed field and potential of lots of tour points, but i might not have the opportunity to. The reason why this, i believe is unfair, is that the field is packed with non BDGA/British touring members - if it was i wouldnt have a leg to stand on and i hope that is a place we one day get to.
Since it is an experimental type of year I would rather think the Bdga would allow the Euro Tour to be included in '17 to see if anyone is excluded or complains given the ET TD has tools to deal with such issues. (If given the opportunity again) We could host a 3 day event for up to 150 players easily accommodating all that want to attend. Your example of why has never happened and will not be the case here in the UK for many years. Excluding the ET from the Bdga Tour serves no purpose, we're probably best to agree on disagreeing.
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