Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

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Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Charlie Mead » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:28 pm

I logged in to the Forum expecting there to be a strand for Nationals and couldn't find one so have started this off - hope that is OK with everyone. I want to see if there are any set plans or decisions made as to the format for Nationals so I can plan my time in best way possible.

I am expecting the normal matchplay format for the Top 16. There may also be the less 'normal' Not the top 16 in a format that is usually decided close to the event due to uncertainty about numbers.

However, I would like to re-introduce the idea I and some others put forward at the beginning of the season - which is to have a Nationals Matchplay event for each of the Divisions competed for on the BDGA Tour. This would then include, say, the following:

Open - Top 16
Women -Top 8
Masters -Top 8
Ams -Top 8
Int Ams -Top 8
Juniors -Top 8

That would be a field of 56 players which would make the event larger, more viable financially and more competitive. It would also provide much needed focus on the top of each division at the season end. It could also mean that some divisions would be able to compete over one day instead of two where numbers made that possible.

Some divisions may not reach their maximum but would still allow a format that would allow an 18 hole course to be far more full than previously.

I think if players have put in a huge effort to attend multiple Tour events in their Divisions that they should be given a showcase oppportunity at the end of the season to compete in a head-to-head with their rivals. I also think it would be good to have a decision on this asap and hopefully before Mendip so it can be announced as early as possible.
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Trevor » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:08 am

This sounds a fantastic idea. I just wonder if it's a bit late for 2016. Certainly more "inclusive"

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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Jester » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:45 pm

With qualification for the 2016 Nationals all but over it's not fair or possible to consider moving the goalposts on the tournament structure. This thread should be for tournament info about the 2016 event, so perhaps a Mod can move this discussion to the 'future tour structure' thread where ideas can be considered in the wider context of when for example during the year Nationals should take place?

The ideas above are worth discussing for 2017. The #1 question will be given the top 16 slots don't even fill with Open players, why would adding more divisions to dilute the pool further help matters?
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by bruce » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:12 pm

Not sure I'm buying it, logistically.

Firstly I don't think we've had 16 Open players at an event this year, so the top 16 will inevitably need topping up from the top of the Masters/Am ranks, which would either greatly dilute those Top 8s, or if players preferred to stay in their division, massively reduce the integrity of the T16.

Secondly, from many years of experience, the 2 day matchplay format only really works with 16, 8 gives you either too many of too few rounds. Also even if you work out a format, any other numbers (7, or 9) really screw it up.

Numbers-wise, there are 18 Open players in powerstats, 12 in Masters, with some crossover, so I just can't see this working yet
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Jester » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:17 pm

Nationals organisers in Manchester, perhaps you can take a cue and share some event details please? If you've got a tournament invite that would be great. Players need to start planning their travel and accom etc. Thanks!
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Charlie Mead » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:28 pm

Just an idea of how to make the event more relevant to all players on the Tour - not just Open. I agree with you all that there is not a clear mathmatical model to suit all numbers in any division - but there is certainly a way to have 8 players in a division play in one day for example.

At the moment only top Am's consider coming to Nationals. If you had a dedicated Am's and Int Am's matchplay then I suggest that many more would look at attend - which would also make the AGM a better attended meeting and give BDGA a wider representation than those that currently qualify for Nationals.
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Trevor » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:43 am

If the BDGA decides that a match play event is going to be the end of season closer and have associated AGMs etc at the same time then the player numbers can be worked around. For example by having capped / staged entry, or using varied format for odd numbers ( multiples of 3 works or playing against your card - DGPT style). Where there's a will there's a way. If it means getting more players engaged in the competition then I think it's good.

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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by bruce » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:20 am

I don't think the AGM has been at nationals for the last 4 or 5 years, it's typically the last tour event. Obviously this year it is, but it by no means has to be so that shouldn't be a factor.

There have been plenty of Int ams at Nationals, because the format of having a PDGA rated strokeplay competition running alongside the T16 is fully inclusive of everyone that wants to play, without the scheduling difficulties that uncertain numbers brings to matchplay.

A quick and dirty search came up with http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/22211 & http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/14252
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Trevor » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:44 am

bruce wrote:I don't think the AGM has been at nationals for the last 4 or 5 years, it's typically the last tour event. Obviously this year it is, but it by no means has to be so that shouldn't be a factor.

There have been plenty of Int ams at Nationals, because the format of having a PDGA rated strokeplay competition running alongside the T16 is fully inclusive of everyone that wants to play, without the scheduling difficulties that uncertain numbers brings to matchplay.

A quick and dirty search came up with http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/22211 & http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/14252
OK I am wrong about the traditional location of the AGM.

But why not open it up to everyone. Back in my day the "not the top 16" was a non event only being attended by locals and hangers on. The title "top 16" must be off putting to some. Having a more meaningful division structure would at least make it appear more attractive to a wider range of players. It would also say to INTs and ADS and all the others that they have something to play for at the end of the season and a final chance to compete against their season long adversaries.

I think you're being a bit blinkered in terms of player numbers and format. With clever entry and innovative formatting you can accommodate a lot more than you seem to be suggesting.

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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by bruce » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:52 pm

But 'back in the day' there were minimal events outside the Tour, little local scene etc. When the MODs 1 day event in Manchester attracted 30 players a month ago, there's no reason to think that there shouldn't be a highly popular strokeplay event alongside the T16.

I reiterate my point about the actual T16, creating other divisions will rob the main event of good players, and end the first couple of rounds as any kind of effective competition, it may as well be a 1-day T8 shootout.

If you're looking for reasons as to previous low attendances then I'd point the finger at using untested venues, often in fairly remote places with low local player numbers, and end-of season fatigue. The justification for the above was that the event was easier to run for new TDs, and you were guaranteed a travelling contingent of top end players. With the rise and rise of the local series, those factors need not be a consideration in future.

There is also the fact that matchplay just isn't everyone's cup of tea. That's certainly the reason for my sporadic attendance, it doesn't float my boat.

A new tour format may render the entire conversation obsolete in any case...
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Trevor » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:15 pm

bruce wrote:But 'back in the day' there were minimal events outside the Tour, little local scene etc. When the MODs 1 day event in Manchester attracted 30 players a month ago, there's no reason to think that there shouldn't be a highly popular strokeplay event alongside the T16.
Back in the day you're correct. If as you suggest there is a large contingent going to play now and the future why not make it matchplay not strokeplay as Charlie suggests?
bruce wrote:I reiterate my point about the actual T16, creating other divisions will rob the main event of good players, and end the first couple of rounds as any kind of effective competition, it may as well be a 1-day T8 shootout.
Why does it have to be T16? If the top players cannot be arsed or make it for other reasons why not have a Division of Open players at whatever the entry dictates. As far as I can tell the T16 has always been padded out with Ad ams and as you have mentioned Int ams. If non open players want to play open let them just like any other tournament.

Why does effective competition have to end? Its all relative, you may be pissed as the first seed being beaten by the 16th but for others it may be important. Matchplay is unpredictable. In the UK we are not talking Climo vs a newbie.
bruce wrote:If you're looking for reasons as to previous low attendances then I'd point the finger at using untested venues, often in fairly remote places with low local player numbers, and end-of season fatigue. The justification for the above was that the event was easier to run for new TDs, and you were guaranteed a travelling contingent of top end players. With the rise and rise of the local series, those factors need not be a consideration in future.
Im not looking at past low attendances I'm looking to the future and having a more meaningful tournament, attractive to all players again along the lines of Charlies suggestion.
bruce wrote:There is also the fact that matchplay just isn't everyone's cup of tea. That's certainly the reason for my sporadic attendance, it doesn't float my boat.
Fine. I love it. Each to their own.
bruce wrote:A new tour format may render the entire conversation obsolete in any case..
Agreed. And as Jester has said I don't think any changes are appropriate for this year. Also I would favour a specific non tour results based matchplay tournament instead of the traditional end of season "T16"

And as is usual a forum thread has dwindled into a discussion between the usual suspects with no real hope of progression or decision.

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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by bruce » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:44 pm

Trevor wrote:
bruce wrote:But 'back in the day' there were minimal events outside the Tour, little local scene etc. When the MODs 1 day event in Manchester attracted 30 players a month ago, there's no reason to think that there shouldn't be a highly popular strokeplay event alongside the T16.
Back in the day you're correct. If as you suggest there is a large contingent going to play now and the future why not make it matchplay not strokeplay as Charlie suggests?
You suggest I'm blinkered, but I have attempted to run matchplay events with weird and wonderful number/formats in the past. I think you're underestimating the difficulty.
Trevor wrote:
bruce wrote:I reiterate my point about the actual T16, creating other divisions will rob the main event of good players, and end the first couple of rounds as any kind of effective competition, it may as well be a 1-day T8 shootout.
Why does it have to be T16? If the top players cannot be arsed or make it for other reasons why not have a Division of Open players at whatever the entry dictates. As far as I can tell the T16 has always been padded out with Ad ams and as you have mentioned Int ams. If non open players want to play open let them just like any other tournament.
I think you might be missing my point somewhat although I'd kind of agree, why bother with a top 16 at all, other than the format works really smoothly. As 16s work, you could have 4 'tiers' of matchplay, seeded by rating, with 16 in each bracket for a total of 64 players. But I cannot see the mini-divisions suggested working, based on experience of trying it.

The Int ams have rarely made it into the T16, I meant at the side-event. Even with Ad Ams playing up, and the odd rogue Open player who was low down in the stats, I think the first round has only thrown up a result against seed about every 3rd year, hence my worry about removing the Masters from eligibility.
Trevor wrote:Why does effective competition have to end? Its all relative, you may be pissed as the first seed being beaten by the 16th but for others it may be important. Matchplay is unpredictable. In the UK we are not talking Climo vs a newbie.
See above, yes, we kind of are talking that...
Trevor wrote:
bruce wrote:If you're looking for reasons as to previous low attendances then I'd point the finger at using untested venues, often in fairly remote places with low local player numbers, and end-of season fatigue. The justification for the above was that the event was easier to run for new TDs, and you were guaranteed a travelling contingent of top end players. With the rise and rise of the local series, those factors need not be a consideration in future.
Im not looking at past low attendances I'm looking to the future and having a more meaningful tournament, attractive to all players again along the lines of Charlies suggestion.
How do you expect to create a more meaningful event without looking at why past ones haven't been perceived as successful? I am near certain that an event in Charlie's format would be the least meaningful matchplay event in history.
Trevor wrote:And as is usual a forum thread has dwindled into a discussion between the usual suspects with no real hope of progression or decision.
The forum does tend to be a slower burner than FB
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by LostMeow » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:57 pm

bruce wrote:You suggest I'm blinkered, but I have attempted to run matchplay events with weird and wonderful number/formats in the past. I think you're underestimating the difficulty.
Having played in a few of these weird and wonderful events, I can attest to how awkward they are for TDs to run and for players to know what the hell is going on. The four-round 16-player system does work beautifully... and I could see it working as Bruce says, as a number of tiers in order of PDGA rating, as long as you could get multiples of 16 to turn up.
Trevor wrote:And as is usual a forum thread has dwindled into a discussion between the usual suspects with no real hope of progression or decision.
Love the negativity! Given the short time-frame (5 weeks) and previously expressed concerns in this thread, I don't think a change should/could be pushed through in time for Nationals in October. Therefore there's no rush. Nothing anyone has expressed here has ruled out any hope of change or progression for future comps though, right?
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by bruce » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:10 pm

LostMeow wrote:as long as you could get multiples of 16 to turn up.
Aye, there's the real rub. No matter what clever format you have worked out for 12's, 14's etc, all it takes is a drop out to screw everything over.
The beauty of T16 with strokeplay is you can easily 'promote' someone and retain the integrity of the matchplay format.
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Trevor » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:15 pm

Tom I though I might snare you with that comment - Its not negativity intentionally, its an honest observation about how discussions usually end up on the forum. I have made it clear that I don't think any change of format is appropriate for this year.

Bruce and Tom, Running tournaments full stop used to be difficult! The tournament you both ran this year were both close to flawlessly run and operated and excellent. Only with experience could this have happened.

With due respect stating that running a tournament with different formats may be difficult is footbag as an excuse for not to trying something different. Yes you may have tried something in the past and your experience is not being discounted (I too have done the same) but poo pooing it out of hand reeks of "when I was a lad "mentality

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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by bruce » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:39 pm

Trevor wrote:With due respect stating that running a tournament with different formats may be difficult is footbag as an excuse for not to trying something different. Yes you may have tried something in the past and your experience is not being discounted (I too have done the same) but poo pooing it out of hand reeks of "when I was a lad "mentality
Sorry that's garbage. The matchplay format, by virtue of each round being standalone 1 vs 1 competitions, has very limited options in terms of how to apply it across a field of players. By all means come up with coherent formats for determining a champion over 4 rounds with every variant from 6-15 players, prove me wrong...
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by Trevor » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:03 pm

bruce wrote:Sorry that's garbage. The matchplay format, by virtue of each round being standalone 1 vs 1 competitions, has very limited options in terms of how to apply it across a field of players. By all means come up with coherent formats for determining a champion over 4 rounds with every variant from 6-15 players, prove me wrong..
Im not saying its not difficult, I'm saying it being "difficult" is a rubbish excuse for not doing it.

Why does it have to be 4 rounds? Why does it have to be 1vs1? As I have said with a cap (or at least a time cut off) on entries and innovative formatting it can be done. I think as long as people are aware that the exact format is subject to numbers, you could have a system where the final top places are decided by 1vs1 and the bottom by other means (win the card, points for players beaten on a hole per card. etc)

I am not going to provide you with a specific example for all the permutations because I'm rubbish at doing it. What I will say is I recently ran a small (yes small) matchplay tournament with an awkward number of players and another player was easily able to make a fair format that worked. If you know numbers well in advance all the better.

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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by bruce » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:09 pm

I'm not saying it's difficult, I strongly suspect it isn't possible. And of course it has to be 1vs1, that's what matchplay is...
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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by seamus » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:42 am

Who will be hosting Nationals in '17?
Is the TD for Nationals in '17 interested in deviating from the normal format?

I think you folks hit the nail on the head with the match play format of Nationals as a season finale. If I was TD though I might argue the event does not need to be 2 days and a 3 round one-dayer would do the trick, or 2 rounds plus a final 9.

1st round- Four cards of 4 (seeded), stroke play,top score on each card advances.
2nd round advancing card winners play seeded match play 1v1, winners advance to final
3rd round 18 or 9 holes match play delivers a champion

Everyone else can always play out the event to decide order of finish.


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Re: Nationals 2016 - Manchester Oct 29-30

Post by BOF » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:41 pm

I'm just curious to know whether I can play at the Nationals this year and what time I have to be there - if invited.

I'm looking forward to playing a course I haven't played at before and this will be my only opportunity to do so.

Only a few weeks to go and domestic logisitics need to be sorted.

Is there anyone qualified to comment on this year's tournament/format/schedule/qualifying criteria, please?

Thanks in advance.

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