BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by seamus » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:35 am

Hello,
Can someone please explain the process undertaken to move the pin placement on Hole 8 mid-tournament?
I've never seen this before and am curious to how it happened.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by bruce » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:12 am

As it was moved between rounds (between days actually), I don't see any issue? It was communicated and clearly visible from the tee so it didn't confer any advantage/disadvantage onto anyone.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by seamus » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:52 am

I disagree, moving the basket was unfair to anyone like myself that carded a 3 or better both rounds on Saturday. I'm curious to the motive for adjusting the basket on a hole that was producing so many large circled numbers. No doubt there are many enjoyable holes at Myerscough but Hole 8 was not a favorite of mine for personal reasons but I would never consider altering a hole mid-event unless it posed a danger to the players.
Given that Jaime had a full agenda I doubt he ran out there with a spade on his own. I also have a clear view the TD was 'informed' after the basket was moved, which is unorthodox but not the issue.

So why was it moved?
Maybe nobody knows and that is the problem.

fyi, Jester please don't think I'm trying to undermine that well earned birdie through the Mando on Sunday, it was a fantastic putt.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by Trevor » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:59 pm

I had the opportunity to discuss this with Jamie on FRIDAY. The Saturday position was then incorrect pin position. The tee sign clearly said 70 meters and the Saturday pin spot was closer to 100. By the time it was noted by Jamie and James it was very late on Friday, the hotshot crew had dispersed and Jamie was too knackered after running about all day to change it to the correct position. I was offered a shovel to go and fix it but I too declined. I am not sure who changed it for Sunday but at least it played as the course designer meant it to be.

I sincerely doubt the change had anythingto do with how it played on Saturday

I have no opinion on the legality of otherwise of the change but it is not unprecedented in recent BDGA events - Burnlaw 2015 had a tee position changed overnight. In both cases in my opinion it made the hole play better.
Last edited by Trevor on Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by bruce » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:02 pm

I take your point, although I wouldn't all it unfair. You gained the advantage by playing the hole well on Sat, moving it didn't negate that, it just happened to be a different hole on Sunday, so maybe you 'lost' a potential advantage. As to why it was moved, general consensus was that the hole had the risk/reward balance wrong; shortening it was a simple way of adjusting that. Beyond that I do not know the whys and wherefores of who made the decision to enact that change.

I tend to agree that I would not make changes to a hole design mid-event excepting for safety issues, but then you and I are both experienced TDs and course designers so would likely not have a hole on the course where the balance was so out of kilter. There were a number of places where a lack of experience and lack of a top end player regularly playing the holes showed a little bit I felt. Modifying a hole in response to feedback was, while a little unorthodox, done with good intentions I think.

I'll run through my course thoughts on a separate post
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by Jester » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:24 pm

Seamus - Thanks for your concern, but I never thought you were undermining. Really enjoyed our Sunday morning round with BOF. :D

Bruce, WRT the overnight course change, this will mean Saturday's rounds have to be reported separately from Sunday's, yes? Can't blend round ratings when the scores are shot on a different course.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by bruce » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:41 pm

Said on Facebook already, but good event, thanks to all involved etc...

Course thoughts:
Overall observation - critical to make sure that there is consistency between the course map/notes, the tee signs, and what is on the ground. As an example, hole 1 map/notes said 'no OB', the tee sign said 'OB to right in house garden'.

1. New tee position is a great improvement, really solid hole now.
2, 3 & 4. Still great holes
5. New OB line on right is a great improvement. Not sure it needs to to cross the fence and loop behind the basket, if the OB line simply became the fence when it rejoined it, that would be easier to put out and not impact the hole. Get a normal pole!
6. The far OB line on the pond edge would benefit from being roped. There is enough foliage on the bank to make it unclear at times.
7. Nice little birdie chance
8. Right. If I was redesigning this hole I would remove the OB completely, move the vertical mando poles one fence post out in each direction to widen the gap and leave the basket in the long position. That would mean that any throw that went low enough through the gap would be safe, discs to either side that hit the fence/bushes would still have to find creative ways of making the mando, but it would be reachable off the tee and there would be enough incentive to try, while still ruling out hyzer bombs/thumbers etc.
9. Love it. So does Jester :wink:
10. New pin position is great, the OB line needs work. For me it should cut around the back of the basket (where the 'not OB' string :?: was) but probably 1-2m further back, and I would have retained over the fence on the right as OB, that way the fairway narrows all the way to the basket and gives you a complete OB line around the hole.
11. Lovely, no changes needed
12. Like the adjusted tee and pin positions. Jester (because he's mean), suggested a bit more strimming on the bank to the right of the pin so that sliding/rolling down the bank into the crud was more likely.
13. This was so close to being a great hole, but ruined by the over-aggressive OB line. I don't think you even need OB left, the fenceline would do, as the whole aim of the drive is to get right to give you a better look at the basket on your second. Just blasting straight out into the field or hyzering left would leave you with a much harder second bringing the fence OB by the pin more into play.
14. Lovely addition, really good hole
15. I like this hole but I don't think I would if the field was mown, strangely. Just ropes on the ground in a wide open field would feel weird.
16. Get a normal pole!
17. Nice, could maybe do with a little pruning of the ceiling arch you drive through.
18. A little bit 'pinball lottery', but fine.

A question well worth asking is that in light of the fact that you have been let down on mowing the back field both years now, and that there are 3-4 long walks associated with getting out there and back, are holes 12-15 good enough to merit retaining that area? Could you maybe find 4 holes utilising the field the basket of 8 is in instead, or 3 there and a temporary one using the driving track? I'm not saying they're not, just that it's worth considering.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by bruce » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:50 pm

Jester wrote:Bruce, WRT the overnight course change, this will mean Saturday's rounds have to be reported separately from Sunday's, yes? Can't blend round ratings when the scores are shot on a different course.
Slightly grey area there, we've come across it with moving a tee before due to conditions. I would probably report them as the same layout but add into the notes section that one hole was adjusted to be ~20m shorter for R3 and let the stats guys decide if it was significant. As long as the numbers are within a certain tolerance I expect they'd consider having 42*3 data points on one set of data better than 42*2 & 41*1, even if some of the data points are fractionally compromised.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by Jester » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:04 pm

bruce wrote:
Jester wrote:Bruce, WRT the overnight course change, this will mean Saturday's rounds have to be reported separately from Sunday's, yes? Can't blend round ratings when the scores are shot on a different course.
Slightly grey area there, we've come across it with moving a tee before due to conditions. I would probably report them as the same layout but add into the notes section that one hole was adjusted to be ~20m shorter for R3 and let the stats guys decide if it was significant. As long as the numbers are within a certain tolerance I expect they'd consider having 42*3 data points on one set of data better than 42*2 & 41*1, even if some of the data points are fractionally compromised.
Cool, thanks for explaining. Happy for the PDGA to decide either way really.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by seamus » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:55 pm

Cheers Gents, glad to hear it wasn't the "do gooder vigilante basket moving party"

Great course & event, I look forward to seeing the next evolution.
Holes 2 and 3 were favorites.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by Jester » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:00 pm

Tournament thoughts:
- Scoreport: Using proper backing cards – great! Different colour backing cards for divisions – also great! Small detail but really help clarity for players.
- Scorecards: No need to have alternating rounds on the scorecards greyed out, they made my Saturday afternoon group accidentally complete our scores in the boxes for round 3, and when this was corrected the pencil still didn’t really show up well on the grey boxes! All-white scorecards are fine.
- Onsite accommodation: I heard that it was great! Would love to know this is available further in advance next year please. Appreciate this info was released late to you by the College, but perhaps a heads-up next time that accom info is coming would be possible?
- Lunches: Delicious and good value
- Spotters on the back field: 100% necessary and 100% brilliant! Giving up their own weekends to help the event run smoothly, and doing it witch such good humour
- Staff: Terrific effort from all those involved
- Schedule: Saturday mornings player meetings, and the tournaments that follow them, tend to run more smoothly if the course map and all associated notes and OBs are put on the forum in the weeks preceding the event. Players can review and have their questions answered well in advance of the event, meaning the players meeting is more of a formality.

Course thoughts:
- Overall: Was great to see so much feedback taken on board follow last year. Thanks for being so open to maintaining what worked well and improving what could be changed. Thanks for playing regular OB rules!
- Documentation: Echoing Bruce, it’s imperative all course documentation (maps, tee signs, OB lists etc) match each other and are the same as what’s on the ground. I know from experience this is one of the toughest things to nail, esp when multiple people are involved in putting out OB lines/drawing maps etc. When doing Croydon course maps in the past, I’ve found it really useful to try and imagine all the ‘what if’ scenarios that could occur on each hole, and to ensure there are notes that make clear how to deal with those things. The less mental effort the course is to play, the more enjoyable it is for the player as they are not worrying about if they are playing the hole correctly or not and are just enjoying the golf. One hole that confused several groups was how to play the OB and Mandos on 8. While the instruction on the scorecard was technically correct, a few more notes to make things clearer would have been really helpful (but see below, if this hole simplifies the problem will go away!)

1. Great new tee position, a fair challenge and much improved on last year
2, 3 & 4. All still great (thanks for clearing out more of the scrub around the Mando on 3
5. New OB line outside the fence is fairer and a good improvement. Please can the basket get a standard length pole on it?
6. OB rope on the pond is required please. I witnessed a disc land in the reeds Saturday am that we called In Bounds because there was no clear OB water line to rule it out, then by Sunday afternoon another disc landing in almost the same place had a lot more water under it and was ruled OB. A line would help give 100% clarity.
8. Agree with Bruce’s suggestion of how to play this, with a wider mando between the bushes and basket in the long position nnd no OB
9. Great OB line. Love it so much I was able to take double OB 6, Double OB 7 and Triple OB 8! Perhaps getting a 3 in the first round was a flukey mistake? Another hole that improves on last year’s design and one to keep with great risk/reward in tee shot and approach.
10. New longer pin is great. I agree with Bruce the fence on the right should be OB too, and that the OB behind the basket is ok to retain but if doing so could push back a couple of metres.
11. Good improvement to make the boggy pond casual relief.
12. Good hole again, just as goo if not better than before. I made a 2 on it on Sunday but only because my drive got stuck in some long stuff on the bank right of the basket. I would suggest strimming this a bit so there is less to catch drives that are off the mark. Strimming also aids those having to chip out from going down the bank so it works both ways.
13. As discussed with Jaime the OB line on the left was too far right. Perhaps Bruce is right that the fence line on the left is sufficient for OB there.
14. Great new hole, worth the walk.
15. I’m not madly keen on island holes like this, they feel a bit artificial, but the field needed something to get players back in this direction. Did it unfairly punish the players who couldn’t through the distance required to reach the first fairway? I heard of one player who could only take 5th shot from the dropzone each roiund as they physically couldn’t throw far enough to reach the front edge.
16. Great hole, but please can the basket get a standard length pole on it?
17. Would also like to see a wee bit of pruning of the ceiling arch but otherwise great.
18. I’m not sure if this feels like a fair challenge, but I don’t know what could be removed from the fairway as everything is pretty mature. I think having the flower beds over on the right as OB is rather harsh. No one is going to throw that way on purpose, and I’ve seen good looking drives down the middle mac off into the beds and get penalized. Perhaps just make them casual and mandate players take free relief from the point of entry?

Finally would also question of the back field is worth persevering with if the grass cutting is an issue? Lots of other land with short grass that holes could perhaps go on instead?

Looking forward to seeing what you guys do with the course and playing again next year. :D
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by seamus » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:31 pm

Scores?
Pdga rating deadline?

I have five minutes to upload if that helps, please feel free to forward the information.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by bruce » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:59 pm

James just put them up on Facebook: http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/28392
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by BOF » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:14 am

Is that 'just' meaning 'recently' or 'only''?

Are we no longer getting results posted on the Forum by default?

Is Facebook where we have to go for our information from now on?

Thanks for the link, Bruce, much appreciated.

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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by Jester » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:11 am

Would be great to have the finalists positions communicated on the Forum as is usually done for other events. This also give the opportunity to record the Spirit of the Game winners and any spot prizes not listed in PDGA results.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by LostMeow » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:11 am

Stats updated:

http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1 ... 0g/pubhtml

(p.s. I'm posting them here before Facebook, so there)
Tom
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by bruce » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:58 pm

BOF wrote:Is that 'just' meaning 'recently' or 'only''?

Are we no longer getting results posted on the Forum by default?

Is Facebook where we have to go for our information from now on?

Thanks for the link, Bruce, much appreciated.

BOF

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I meant 'recently'. I guess as I posted them it negated any reason for someone else to do so. I certainly plan to continue using the forum. I may choose to only use the forum and link to here on FB instead of direct to the PDGA/invite, see if I can't direct a bit more traffic this way.
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Re: BDGA Tour #6 - Lancashire Hotshot 25th / 26th June 2016

Post by BOF » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:57 pm

I may choose to only use the forum and link to here on FB instead of direct to the PDGA/invite, see if I can't direct a bit more traffic this way.
A very good idea, Bruce.

Thanks

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