BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by rhatton1 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:54 am

Don't think the measurements are right on 7.

should be around 160 meters.

Has anyone gone long successfully yet, a 450' drive to a narrow landing zone, or has it all been played as 300' layups and 200' hyzer bomb seconds?
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by Jester » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:09 am

Thanks, Rich, I missed converting the yards figures into metres. Will correct that.

As to how it's played, something similar to this new design for 7 was played at the Croydon Masters event a couple of weeks ago but I'm afraid I wasn't there to report how it was played. We played this design for 7 the first time on Saturday. It's a tough whichever way you play it. Hard as to hit the fairway, hard to lay up and leave a hyzer bomb that doesn't need to have some luck attached to it to yield a 3.

The hole design is going to be used in the Croydon Summer League which kicks off tommorrow.
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by Jester » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:37 am

Map data updated.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz16 ... 3f4c5b.jpg


Also new DZ on 7 in satellite pic was in wrong place, now corrected on this image.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz16 ... 0f2193.jpg
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by ultiali » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:19 pm

Jester wrote:Thanks, Rich, I missed converting the yards figures into metres. Will correct that.

As to how it's played, something similar to this new design for 7 was played at the Croydon Masters event a couple of weeks ago but I'm afraid I wasn't there to report how it was played. We played this design for 7 the first time on Saturday. It's a tough whichever way you play it. Hard as to hit the fairway, hard to lay up and leave a hyzer bomb that doesn't need to have some luck attached to it to yield a 3.

The hole design is going to be used in the Croydon Summer League which kicks off tommorrow.
Played this last night. Only a very small breeze. The drive is made harder with dead trees and saplings to the right which prevent a straight drive if you want to go for distance. Still with a slight anhyser release I was able to get good distance but ended up too close to the tree line. That meant a toughh 2nd which didn;t get close so had to settle for a 4. In those conditions I'd reckon on a 3 about 3/4 times out of ten.

Better hole for the changes I feel.

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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by BOF » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:24 pm

Hole #7

Not sure if I can see what the designers of this hole are trying to achieve with this - I've never really understood this hole at all.

Can anyone suggest what options there are to entice players at this hole, please?

All I can see is a driver/mid-range to somewhere between the old and new dropzones, followed by some kind of hyzer-thing, then a lay-up for 4 or a nice putt for 3.

Is that what's expected? Is it possible to drive BEYOND the semicircle of trees that protect the basket or is it just too far now that the tee has been moved back?

BOF



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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by Mr.Scary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:34 pm

so when you guys played 7 how strong was the headwind...???
like 10mph in your face, left to right or...???

thx. :D
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by LostMeow » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:36 am

Conor - the point of trying to make improvements is that we can't tell how good or bad they are until they've actually been played more than a few times. We'll see how players tackle it at the Cyclone...

Steve - we've played it with a reasonably strong headwind and a light breeze - both pretty much head-on.
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by LostMeow » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:38 am

Just two days to go until the end of early registration! This is your chance to choose which free Innova disc you'll get, and also to choose the format: the voting currently stands at 19 votes for 3 rounds and a final; 23 votes for 4 rounds...
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:39 am

Can you have a bad improvement...? oh oh, here come the pedant police to take me away.
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by ultiali » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:21 am

BOF wrote:Hole #7

Not sure if I can see what the designers of this hole are trying to achieve with this - I've never really understood this hole at all.

Can anyone suggest what options there are to entice players at this hole, please?

All I can see is a driver/mid-range to somewhere between the old and new dropzones, followed by some kind of hyzer-thing, then a lay-up for 4 or a nice putt for 3.

Is that what's expected? Is it possible to drive BEYOND the semicircle of trees that protect the basket or is it just too far now that the tee has been moved back?

BOF



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The key choice you have is how far to go with your drive. It is not a simple drive (there is wood and OB in your way) to get towards the semi circle of trees, but if you make it then you'll be rewarded with a relatively simple RHBH hyzer to get you under the basket. If you get the drive a bit wrong and end up in the trees to the left then you're highly likely to be behind or obstructed by a tree and a three will be unlikely.

If you play the safe lay up then you either have to produce a huge 2nd which avoids OB and trees to be under the basket in 2 or play another two controlled shots to be under the basket in 3.

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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by Jester » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:47 pm

BOF wrote:Hole #7

Not sure if I can see what the designers of this hole are trying to achieve with this - I've never really understood this hole at all.

Can anyone suggest what options there are to entice players at this hole, please?

All I can see is a driver/mid-range to somewhere between the old and new dropzones, followed by some kind of hyzer-thing, then a lay-up for 4 or a nice putt for 3.

Is that what's expected? Is it possible to drive BEYOND the semicircle of trees that protect the basket or is it just too far now that the tee has been moved back?

BOF


Big Putt
TBH, mate, if you've 'never really understood' the original hole, would you agree it's unlikely you'll be able to see what the changes are attempting to do? Let’s walk it through:

The original hole asked players to drive over a large area of OB to reach the fairway. Players had to choose how far to aim up the fairway: aim shorter/safer and have a much longer second shot, or aim further/riskier and potentially go OB.

This design probably played best for the Adv Am div where this choice on the drive was genuine. Open div all drive long - none tried to lay up as the landing area for the long drive actually got wider and bigger the further they threw. Most Int Ams just tried to get across the OB anyway they could and then take it from there. Some made it, many didn’t and were off to the DZ. Although the design had good intensions, it never really delivered.

Given that we still have to have a hole in this area of the park to maintain the course flow, and that moving the basket isn’t something that can be done easily, the options open to us for redesign were new mandatories, OB line and tee position.

1. New mandos: not even discussed by the design team, there is nothing in the back field that would work in this way to improve the hole

2. OB Line change: we looked at many different and angles and shapes for the line and settled on this new line for a number of reasons:
- It doesn’t unduly penalise shorter arms, everyone has a chance to be able to drive IB
- It doesn’t get wider nearer the basket, so the landing area doesn’t increase is size for longer arms
- It still provides a threat that needs avoided, and in doing so brings the trees short and left of the basket into play

3. Tee position: moving this back has added extra distance to the overall hole, which at its bluntest means those who score well here are earning it more than previously and will therefore be more likely to be picking up shots on their fellow players. In its specific position, the majority of players (RHBH throwers) can choose either a big flexed drive to get as far up the fairway as possible for the easier approach, or go for a safer drive down the line leaving a much longer second. Avoiding the OB with either choice brings the trees between the DZ and basket into play considerable more than before.

So overall, where does that leave us? After weeks of discussion, and play-testing the changes, it is our best guess these tweaks improve the hole. We’re really excited about seeing how the new design is played by the Cyclone players and hearing feedback on what they thought of it. It is inevitable that in making the improvements some new issues have probably also been created, and we won’t shy away from addressing those if we need to in order to create the best design of hole we can.
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by TheGroover » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:26 pm

And here's some analysis of v7 from Cyclone 2011, if you're interested:
http://public.tableausoftware.com/views ... y_count=no
(which shows you that too many open players were getting birdies - this hole needs a bigger challenge for the Open players without wrecking the challenge for other divs)
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by Del » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:15 pm

Jester's analysis makes perfect sense to me. I think the previous design was flawed, and the new design looks promising. I look forward to playing it.
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by LostMeow » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:12 pm

Performance Flight

Some information about the performance flight system we'll be running. As mentioned in the invite, any player with a PDGA rating is eligible to enter the performance flight contest to win the place at this year's USDGC. What we will do is generate a target round score based on a player's rating - their performance over the tournament is then judged relative to this. The winner gets first refusal of the place at the USDGC. So far we have 9 players signed up to take part, and I am assuming they have taken into consideration the time and cost implications of going to the USDGC tournament!

I will also roll the system out to all players at the Cyclone with a PDGA rating just so they can see how they'd be doing.

The system for generating target scores comes from Bruce and is designed to take account of the fact that it is more difficult for higher-rated players to knock strokes off their scores, which would normally give lower-rated players an advantage on a flat rating vs. rating basis.

As a couple of examples:
Del with a rating of 981 has a target score of 54
My rating of 912 gives me a target score of 60 - notice that my rating puts me closer to 7 shots worse than Del, but my round target is only 6 shots worse.
Hippy Dan with a rating of 862 has a target score of 64 - 10 shots below Del's, despite his rating being almost 12 shots below.

etc. etc.

Anyone interested in the maths ask me or Bruce!
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by ChrisOBrien » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:19 pm

Performance Flight

I had this idea the other day..

everyone in the performance flight has an option to put in say £25 into the hat and if one of those players wins a place at the USDGC then the proceeds go towards their flight. So even if a player loses they really win because they are contributing to support a fellow player to make the big trip. And the 'winner winner' can have the luxury of eating extra cheeseburgers without breaking the bank
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by Mr.Scary » Wed May 01, 2013 6:17 am

Jester wrote:
BOF wrote:Hole #7

Not sure if I can see what the designers of this hole are trying to achieve with this - I've never really understood this hole at all.

Can anyone suggest what options there are to entice players at this hole, please?

All I can see is a driver/mid-range to somewhere between the old and new dropzones, followed by some kind of hyzer-thing, then a lay-up for 4 or a nice putt for 3.

Is that what's expected? Is it possible to drive BEYOND the semicircle of trees that protect the basket or is it just too far now that the tee has been moved back?

BOF


Big Putt
TBH, mate, if you've 'never really understood' the original hole, would you agree it's unlikely you'll be able to see what the changes are attempting to do? Let’s walk it through:

The original hole asked players to drive over a large area of OB to reach the fairway. Players had to choose how far to aim up the fairway: aim shorter/safer and have a much longer second shot, or aim further/riskier and potentially go OB.

This design probably played best for the Adv Am div where this choice on the drive was genuine. Open div all drive long - none tried to lay up as the landing area for the long drive actually got wider and bigger the further they threw. Most Int Ams just tried to get across the OB anyway they could and then take it from there. Some made it, many didn’t and were off to the DZ. Although the design had good intensions, it never really delivered.

Given that we still have to have a hole in this area of the park to maintain the course flow, and that moving the basket isn’t something that can be done easily, the options open to us for redesign were new mandatories, OB line and tee position.

1. New mandos: not even discussed by the design team, there is nothing in the back field that would work in this way to improve the hole

2. OB Line change: we looked at many different and angles and shapes for the line and settled on this new line for a number of reasons:
- It doesn’t unduly penalise shorter arms, everyone has a chance to be able to drive IB
- It doesn’t get wider nearer the basket, so the landing area doesn’t increase is size for longer arms
- It still provides a threat that needs avoided, and in doing so brings the trees short and left of the basket into play

3. Tee position: moving this back has added extra distance to the overall hole, which at its bluntest means those who score well here are earning it more than previously and will therefore be more likely to be picking up shots on their fellow players. In its specific position, the majority of players (RHBH throwers) can choose either a big flexed drive to get as far up the fairway as possible for the easier approach, or go for a safer drive down the line leaving a much longer second. Avoiding the OB with either choice brings the trees between the DZ and basket into play considerable more than before.

So overall, where does that leave us? After weeks of discussion, and play-testing the changes, it is our best guess these tweaks improve the hole. We’re really excited about seeing how the new design is played by the Cyclone players and hearing feedback on what they thought of it. It is inevitable that in making the improvements some new issues have probably also been created, and we won’t shy away from addressing those if we need to in order to create the best design of hole we can.

:like:
"By far, the most important part of any shot is what is happening in the last split second as the disc is pulling itself from your grip. Focus there. It's the key."

"Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do."

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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by Mr.Scary » Wed May 01, 2013 6:18 am

TheGroover wrote:And here's some analysis of v7 from Cyclone 2011, if you're interested:
http://public.tableausoftware.com/views ... y_count=no
(which shows you that too many open players were getting birdies - this hole needs a bigger challenge for the Open players without wrecking the challenge for other divs)

M.I.T./Oxford FB Pages :like:
"By far, the most important part of any shot is what is happening in the last split second as the disc is pulling itself from your grip. Focus there. It's the key."

"Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do."

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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by Mr.Scary » Wed May 01, 2013 6:21 am

LostMeow wrote:Just two days to go until the end of early registration! This is your chance to choose which free Innova disc you'll get, and also to choose the format: the voting currently stands at 19 votes for 3 rounds and a final; 23 votes for 4 rounds...

:eagerlyawaitingresultstomaketravelplansfinal:


:D
"By far, the most important part of any shot is what is happening in the last split second as the disc is pulling itself from your grip. Focus there. It's the key."

"Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do."

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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by LostMeow » Wed May 01, 2013 6:41 am

Format
The votes are in! It's a close one...

3 rounds and a final: 19 votes
4 rounds: 24 votes
No preference: 7 votes

So the choice has been made: it will be a 4 round tournament!
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Re: BDGA #6 CROYDON CYCLONE & BRITISH OPEN 18-19 MAY 2013

Post by mat cutler » Wed May 01, 2013 9:29 am

ChrisOBrien wrote:Performance Flight

I had this idea the other day..

everyone in the performance flight has an option to put in say £25 into the hat and if one of those players wins a place at the USDGC then the proceeds go towards their flight. So even if a player loses they really win because they are contributing to support a fellow player to make the big trip. And the 'winner winner' can have the luxury of eating extra cheeseburgers without breaking the bank
I like this idea although may prefer a figure nearer the £10-15 range.... burgers are cheap in the US :D

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