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bruce
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Post by bruce » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:26 am

Tim Tom wrote:
bruce wrote:
This particular matter is with the DoC. We don't feel the need to rush this, any sanctions would not be relevant until Mull 2007 in any case. Rest assured that once action has been taken, the membership will be notified.
Surely if any sanctions were going to be incurred then that should happen now and not next year when what actually happened is long forgotten or not cared about.

If the BDGA are going to do something surely that has a bearing on all subsequent tour events since Mull, or not as the case seems, so TD's it's up to you how you run your events and the BDGA guidelines are meaningless and probably the PDGA rulebook to boot...

Glad to hear that the membership will be notified, i'm sure they'll be chuffed.

Tim
Resisting my usual urge to bite at your deliberately provocative comments, I think we've made it clear that sanctions will be taken, so other TD's should keep their noses clean. I never said they wouldn't take place until 2007, simply that they wouldn't be relevant 'til then.

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Post by Tim » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:52 am

bruce wrote:
Tim Tom wrote:
bruce wrote:
This particular matter is with the DoC. We don't feel the need to rush this, any sanctions would not be relevant until Mull 2007 in any case. Rest assured that once action has been taken, the membership will be notified.
Surely if any sanctions were going to be incurred then that should happen now and not next year when what actually happened is long forgotten or not cared about.

If the BDGA are going to do something surely that has a bearing on all subsequent tour events since Mull, or not as the case seems, so TD's it's up to you how you run your events and the BDGA guidelines are meaningless and probably the PDGA rulebook to boot...

Glad to hear that the membership will be notified, i'm sure they'll be chuffed.

Tim
Resisting my usual urge to bite at your deliberately provocative comments, I think we've made it clear that sanctions will be taken, so other TD's should keep their noses clean. I never said they wouldn't take place until 2007, simply that they wouldn't be relevant 'til then.
Bite away, without debate nothing ever happens. If any sanction is incurred, why is it not relevant until 2007, granted it may not be relevant to the Mull TD's, but it is very relevant to other TD's this season and the membership. My view is that it brings the credibility of the BDGA into question.

Any other views out there?

Tim
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bruce
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Post by bruce » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:04 am

Bite away, without debate nothing ever happens. If any sanction is incurred, why is it not relevant until 2007, granted it may not be relevant to the Mull TD's, but it is very relevant to other TD's this season and the membership. My view is that it brings the credibility of the BDGA into question.

Any other views out there?

Tim
Why is it relevant to other TDs? All they need to know is that it is unacceptable to flaunt the rules. If they choose to do so, they risk incurring sanctions.

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Tim
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Post by Tim » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:13 am

bruce wrote:
Bite away, without debate nothing ever happens. If any sanction is incurred, why is it not relevant until 2007, granted it may not be relevant to the Mull TD's, but it is very relevant to other TD's this season and the membership. My view is that it brings the credibility of the BDGA into question.

Any other views out there?

Tim
Why is it relevant to other TDs? All they need to know is that it is unacceptable to flaunt the rules. If they choose to do so, they risk incurring sanctions.
Well that's the question isn't it, what risk is there really, as far as i'm aware there has never been a sanction against any TD.

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Post by bruce » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:16 am

Tim Tom wrote:Well that's the question isn't it, what risk is there really, as far as i'm aware there has never been a sanction against any TD.

Tim
So what you're actually saying is that you don't believe we'll do anything, despite several statements by myself to the contrary. Clearly you don't believe what I'm saying, so there's little point in discussing it.

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Post by Tim » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:33 am

bruce wrote:
Tim Tom wrote:Well that's the question isn't it, what risk is there really, as far as i'm aware there has never been a sanction against any TD.

Tim
So what you're actually saying is that you don't believe we'll do anything, despite several statements by myself to the contrary. Clearly you don't believe what I'm saying, so there's little point in discussing it.
That does seem to be the implication, doesn't it, but i would love to be proven wrong...

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Post by dscglfr40 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:39 pm

Bruce,
I know it must be tough trying to answer questions as a member when you're the Secretaty of the Bdga. But it has been a month or so and really any infraction this TD now faces seems to be an afterthought. Personally I think the money that wasn't discounted should just be given back as I stated before. This doesn't seem to be that difficult of a solution and the issue could be over. My natural tendency tells me that if you let this go on it will happen again. I may not agree with the penalty but a definite message needs to be sent.
I'm not totally familiar with the situation but if all the other TD's can get it right I doubt it was an accident the members weren't discounted. Besides if we as a group don't stand together to support and or penalize TD's and tournaments then what good is belonging to an association like the BDGA?!
I know you're probably working this issue but it seems as though some of us card carrying members are restless to ensure this doesn't happen again.

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Post by madfrolfer » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:08 am

I would think that if the Board made any effort to keep us up to date on issues at hand, we wouldn't be on here hounding the only Board member who seems to try and relate any information.

Since this rules infraction occured all that has happened is that we were notified by a BDGA member who was obviously disgruntled, brought somewhat up to speed by Bruce without his BDGA hat on and that has been that.

Do we need to take some other action to let the Board know that we would like to be updated?

Maybe in the BDGA 2006 Tour Players Handbook there is something.... :wink:
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Spider
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Post by Spider » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:55 pm

I think Fernando is right - the rules of natural justice require that disciplinary action should be taken as soon after an alleged infringement as possible. The reason for this is that the events will be fresh in the memory, and witnesses are more likely to be accurate in their recollection.
Article X of the BDGA Constitution provides authority to the Committee to resolve disputes, but (to enable transparency) a simple format for dealing with complaints should be established (IMHO). The BDGA should also nominate someone on the Committee to handle complaints.
A simple complaints format might be:
As soon as a written complaint is made about any player or TD (whether behavioural or rule-based), the Committee should:
1. Within (say) 14 days, consider whether it is sufficiently serious to merit further investigation. If not, then the complaining member should be informed and given reasons for the matter not being pursued. Otherwise, if the matter merits further consideration,
2. Seek further corroborative evidence over the following 14 days, and
3. Put the allegation to the alleged offender and request a response within a strict time limit (eg 14 days)
4. Decide (within a further 14 days) whether sufficient evidence exists for the complaint to be upheld, and if so
5. Issue an appropriate sanction immediately.
6. Forthwith publicise the nature of the complaint and the sanction imposed to the bdga membership.
7. Be willing to hear an appeal from the offender, but only upon production of new evidence.
Full written records should be kept of the investigation and decisions made, in case of any formal legal challenge (unlikely, but these days...).
A sanction issued quickly after an infringement, following a fair investigation, issues a clear message to the membership that BDGA rules and behavioural standards must be maintained.
OK, this is all a bit legalistic, but I am a lawyer, so what do you expect! :roll:
Spider
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Post by mealticket » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:55 pm

This is syptomatic of what's going wrong with the bdga in general. People who've got time and energy to devote to disc golf are wasting it on endless debate and verbal oneupmanship.
I presume we're all bdga members here. Therefore we are all pdga members. Mull was a pdga event as well as bdga. the pdga has guidelines and sanctions. use them.
We have (I think) 78 members. their time can be far better utilised on making disc golf happen in this country. leave the politics to the association that has the members and resources to carry politicians and administrators.
Lets concentrate our precious time and energy on making thriving local scenes (ask Nige if you don't know what to do - he seems to be quite good at that) and a thriving national scene (ask Derek about that one. Prior to his decision to stand down, the bdga was making great progress, presumably largely to do with him).

I think that's all I have to say for now.
Go out and play some golf.

Neal

I was wrong - one more thing to say: "without debate nothig will get done" are you sure about that? Debate seems like a pretty effective way to ensure that nothing gets done to me.

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Post by madfrolfer » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:35 am

Mealticket is right... Bruce, Tim, Angus and myself do absolutely nothing to promote or grow the sport. All we do is debate when we could be working as TD's, or helping to introduce the sport to busloads of Highland youths, or serving on the Board of Directors for the BDGA. Shame on us, lesson learned. :lol:
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Post by Tim » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:17 am

mealticket wrote:I think that's all I have to say for now.
Go out and play some golf.

Neal
Sounds good to me and as Fernando has pointed out, we don't do a lot to promote our sport locally or nationally, just chew the fat on the forum... :roll:

Tim
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Post by Tim » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:21 am

Spider wrote:I think Fernando is right - the rules of natural justice require that disciplinary action should be taken as soon after an alleged infringement as possible. The reason for this is that the events will be fresh in the memory, and witnesses are more likely to be accurate in their recollection.
Yep, this is my point exactly, until Steve jogged my memory about the incidents i had totally forgotten about the infractions, if disciplinary action is to be taken, then it should be taken swiftly and firmly and we can all move on and learn from it, but to prevaricate... enough said...

Tim
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bruce
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Post by bruce » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:04 am

Tim Tom wrote:
Spider wrote:I think Fernando is right - the rules of natural justice require that disciplinary action should be taken as soon after an alleged infringement as possible. The reason for this is that the events will be fresh in the memory, and witnesses are more likely to be accurate in their recollection.
Yep, this is my point exactly, until Steve jogged my memory about the incidents i had totally forgotten about the infractions, if disciplinary action is to be taken, then it should be taken swiftly and firmly and we can all move on and learn from it, but to prevaricate... enough said...

Tim
I think we need to find a fair balance between "swiftly and firmly" and "kneejerk".

To re-iterate several of my previous points, sometimes for the fourth or fifth or nth time:

1) We are dealing with this issue.

2) The BDGA is missing any formal disciplinary guidelines. We have rules, but no set sanctions for breaking them or methods for dealing with complaints/allegations. I'm looking into creating some. However, the lack of guidelines inevitably means that things take longer, as they require more discussion and contemplation than would otherwise be needed.

3) I still don't really see why the Board should comment on "matters in hand", no other official bodies (FA, RFU, Police etc) that I can think of do.

Looking at Angus' timeline, (which I think is very reasonable, and I'll be talking to Angus, see 2) above):

Issue reported 2nd May (on this forum and by email to the DoC)
1. 14 days consideration
2. 14 days seeking evidence
3. 14 days for alleged offender to respond

Which takes us to.....today! So we'd still have 14 days to decide whether to punish and issue a sanction.
Now I'm not for one minute claiming that we're on this timeline, or guarenteeing that you'll get a decision in 14 days, but I think this proves point 2), we need guidelines. If we had the ones above, no one here would have expected a response by now.

I think Tim and Fernando have adequately covered Neal's post :roll:, with one exception. I haven't checked, but I'm pretty darn sure that the PDGA guidelines and sanctions don't extend to covering what to do if a TD doesn't offer a BDGA discount. The clue is in the name... :lol:

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Post by mat cutler » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:05 pm

I must say I have to strongly agree with neal. This although an important issue in the grand scheme of things is doing little to promote disc golf! people should be using this forum for much more constructive things like advertising when and where you get out playing disc golf or putting effort in to having decent maps and course guides for example the bdga website doesn't even list whitcombe or mull of it's course directory! I've tried to use the forum to organise getting lifts arranged and transport shared to tournaments with very little sucess!

something bud, neal and I discussed in length at K classic we near more doers and less committee men! we 're a very small organisation and we have to remember it is run by volunteers!

Td's will make mistakes players will smoke, drink and use foul language when playing apologies to the kids but is it any worse than anywhere else in society, maybe even including the playground? We all need to be more aware of this issue and be more sensitive making the the sport more family friendly.

Professionalism is a word i saw pop up in a couple of posts, Allow td's to make profits pay course staff, have marshalls, adequate toilet facilties, accomodation etc etc? Is this a solution?

this has happened in uk ultimate which i think generally can provide a few good pointers on many of these issues as there was a lot of these issues cropping up a couple of years ago, bongs being tournament prizes, alcohol as prizes? again mull? sub standard pitches, shower / bathroom facilities?
ukultimate has gone the route of profit ie TD make a small amount of money and therefore can cover their costs of the HR needs to organise a tournament.

this has worked quite well however there are still glitches and tour events still seem to have problems with getting pitches sorted properly, bathroom facilities etc etc.

I like to feel an assiociation of members we might be able to go down rather a different route - can't just turn up expect everything to be done for you! you make it what it is, get out, get involved recruit new players get them to tournaments, organise small one day events at your local course get a local ladder league going etc etc. Use the forum and email communication in the disc golf community constructively;
give coaching tips for getting new players involved
advertise courses and when you play them
draw up good maps, info on getting to courses by public transport etc
discuss what worked what was good
open and friendly constructive criticism on events

lets stop this thread, be more easy going and understanding of people's views

matt cutler.

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Post by bruce » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:00 pm

mat cutler wrote:I must say I have to strongly agree with neal. This although an important issue in the grand scheme of things is doing little to promote disc golf! people should be using this forum for much more constructive things like advertising when and where you get out playing disc golf or putting effort in to having decent maps and course guides for example the bdga website doesn't even list whitcombe or mull of it's course directory! I've tried to use the forum to organise getting lifts arranged and transport shared to tournaments with very little sucess!

something bud, neal and I discussed in length at K classic we near more doers and less committee men! we 're a very small organisation and we have to remember it is run by volunteers!

Td's will make mistakes players will smoke, drink and use foul language when playing apologies to the kids but is it any worse than anywhere else in society, maybe even including the playground? We all need to be more aware of this issue and be more sensitive making the the sport more family friendly.

Professionalism is a word i saw pop up in a couple of posts, Allow td's to make profits pay course staff, have marshalls, adequate toilet facilties, accomodation etc etc? Is this a solution?

this has happened in uk ultimate which i think generally can provide a few good pointers on many of these issues as there was a lot of these issues cropping up a couple of years ago, bongs being tournament prizes, alcohol as prizes? again mull? sub standard pitches, shower / bathroom facilities?
ukultimate has gone the route of profit ie TD make a small amount of money and therefore can cover their costs of the HR needs to organise a tournament.

this has worked quite well however there are still glitches and tour events still seem to have problems with getting pitches sorted properly, bathroom facilities etc etc.

I like to feel an assiociation of members we might be able to go down rather a different route - can't just turn up expect everything to be done for you! you make it what it is, get out, get involved recruit new players get them to tournaments, organise small one day events at your local course get a local ladder league going etc etc. Use the forum and email communication in the disc golf community constructively;
give coaching tips for getting new players involved
advertise courses and when you play them
draw up good maps, info on getting to courses by public transport etc
discuss what worked what was good
open and friendly constructive criticism on events

lets stop this thread, be more easy going and understanding of people's views

matt cutler.
Sorry, but this is utter garbage...
Regardless of the particular rule infraction, this thread is about Tour Standards, and how we deal with TDs not meeting them.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the promotion of discgolf by individuals, and everything to do with how our sport is perceived. If you were a brand new member, or a novice, and Mull 2006 was your first ever BDGA event, there is every chance that it would also have been your last.

I'm 'at work' right now. I'm not sure exactly how I could be out running a 1 day event, but I can discuss problems with the BDGA Tour. Sure, me Tim and Fernando don't necessarily agree on everything, but without their input, and threads like this, the Disciplinary guide I've drafted over the last couple of weeks may never have happened.

Hell, I'm man enough to admit that without this thread, action over the Mull situation may never have happened, beyond a frown and a wagged finger.

Of the most prolific posters on this thread (and this forum), Tim and Fernando revived the Essex DG scene from virtually nothing, and have hosted regular 1 day events there.
I'm sure you'll be enjoying the UWE course I was heavily involved in establishing, and since moving to London I have hosted many 1 day events, and given my support and advice to the Croydon DGC who will very soon have the first ever basketed course in London.
Angus puts in huge mileage for, and support to, the Ullakids.
Steve is heavily involved in the Shropshire scene you enjoyed the benefits of a couple of weekends ago.
At the risk of sounding antagonistic, get back to us when the Bristol scene is thriving.

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Tim
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Post by Tim » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:28 pm

bruce wrote: Sorry, but this is utter garbage...
Regardless of the particular rule infraction, this thread is about Tour Standards, and how we deal with TDs not meeting them.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the promotion of discgolf by individuals, and everything to do with how our sport is perceived. If you were a brand new member, or a novice, and Mull 2006 was your first ever BDGA event, there is every chance that it would also have been your last.

I'm 'at work' right now. I'm not sure exactly how I could be out running a 1 day event, but I can discuss problems with the BDGA Tour. Sure, me Tim and Fernando don't necessarily agree on everything, but without their input, and threads like this, the Disciplinary guide I've drafted over the last couple of weeks may never have happened.

Hell, I'm man enough to admit that without this thread, action over the Mull situation may never have happened, beyond a frown and a wagged finger.

Of the most prolific posters on this thread (and this forum), Tim and Fernando revived the Essex DG scene from virtually nothing, and have hosted regular 1 day events there.
I'm sure you'll be enjoying the UWE course I was heavily involved in establishing, and since moving to London I have hosted many 1 day events, and given my support and advice to the Croydon DGC who will very soon have the first ever basketed course in London.
Angus puts in huge mileage for, and support to, the Ullakids.
Steve is heavily involved in the Shropshire scene you enjoyed the benefits of a couple of weekends ago.
At the risk of sounding antagonistic, get back to us when the Bristol scene is thriving.
Snigger :lol: I'm with Bruce on this one as well, this whole discussion has been about tour standards, namely a disciplinary procedure, yes I have pushed, but sometimes this is necessary to maintain the momentum that i feel the BDGA has started to really achieve. This discussion is not about bashing it is actually about doing.

To quote Bruce "At the risk of sounding antagonistic, get back to us when the Bristol scene is thriving".

Tim

Edited by me as we don't want any bashing on the forums, now do we :wink:
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Post by TheGroover » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:03 pm

mat cutler wrote: Td's will make mistakes players will smoke, drink and use foul language when playing apologies to the kids but is it any worse than anywhere else in society, maybe even including the playground? We all need to be more aware of this issue and be more sensitive making the the sport more family friendly.
This thread is also about overcharging BDGA members for tournament entry. That's an important infringement of the BDGA guidelines and a good way to make ordinary members question the point of their joining.

That IS worth discussing - avoiding issues that may piss off your members is vital.

Andy
(press officer for BDGA, runner of Oxdisc summer league: NOT sitting on my posterior moaning about disc golf)

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Post by madfrolfer » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:58 pm

So, still no update on any kind of actions considered or taken I guess.
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Tim
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Post by Tim » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:11 am

madfrolfer wrote:So, still no update on any kind of actions considered or taken I guess.
You didn't actually believe anything would be communicated to us mere mortals did you... :roll:

Tim
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