BDGA member discount

Does what it says on the tin!
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TheGroover
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BDGA member discount

Post by TheGroover » Tue May 02, 2006 11:35 am

Mull tournament entry fee was the same whether or not players were BDGA members. This was against tournament guidelines, and against BDGA rules, as far as I am aware. On a personal level, it also negates one of the incentives of joining the BDGA*.

I joined the BDGA to support the sport, and aid in its development, but knowing that I would get a reduced tournament entry fee was an added bonus.

When a TD chooses to ignore this rule, it's taking advantage of the BDGA. If Mull, for example, was not on the BDGA tour, how many people would not make the effort to go? I think the fact that it is a tour event does increase the number of players. Therefore the TD is benefitting from the BDGA name.

What do people think? Not something worth worrying about? Something to be punished? Any ways of dealing with it?

Andy

* having said that, it's not the value that's important - I can still afford to pay an extra two pounds! It's the principle that counts.

And finally, Mull was a fantastic tournament, a great course and a wonderful hill to stand on for three days.

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Post by Village » Tue May 02, 2006 12:40 pm

Bruce,

the image (hosted by Angelfire) doesn't appaer on my 'puter. What is it?

Pete
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Steve
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Post by Steve » Tue May 02, 2006 1:22 pm

After right clicking and checking the link.
I believe it was something like this:

Image

Bruce wanted to post :)
[url=http://www.shropdisc.co.uk/]Disc Golf In Shropshire[/url]

[color=red] BDGA # 266
[url=http://www.pdga.org/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=8833&year=2007]PDGA # 8833[/url]
[/color]

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Post by bruce » Tue May 02, 2006 2:10 pm

Indeed, not sure why mine didn't, but there you go... :)

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Tim
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Post by Tim » Tue May 02, 2006 2:26 pm

As BDGA Secretary do you honestly think that posting that picture is appropriate... :roll:

Andy has voiced a very valid point, the BDGA tag to any tournament endorses that event to a certain set of standards, does it not, and that said does encourage players to travel to events that perhaps they may not have attended if it was just the Mull Open and not on any tour.

Surely a more appropriate answer should be forthcoming, other than an open can of worms...

Tim
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Mulligan

Post by Spider » Tue May 02, 2006 3:05 pm

I agree with Tim and The Groover. I made the mistake of trying to argue with Gremlin that his entry fee was wrong :? Not only was he not offering a discount for BDGA members, his headline fee (£15, £10 concession) was higher than the invite (£14, £7.50).
Not that his charge was unreasonable as such - you just expect BDGA invites to be accurate.
Mull was certainly a wild tournament, in many senses. :shock: Perhaps too much so, in some ways, if we wish to attract youngsters and families to such events...
That said, all of us from Ullapool loved the course, and the whole w/e. :D None of the negative aspects would stop us coming back (tho' not to camp at the course - there's only so many times that you can make your way to the woods with a spade and find it an amusing novelty! :oops: ).
Special mention and gratitude should go to Sue and Ivan, and the Boltons, for all their work.
Spider
PS the Germans got to use Gremlin's toilet :evil:
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Post by bruce » Tue May 02, 2006 3:09 pm

Tim Tom wrote:As BDGA Secretary do you honestly think that posting that picture is appropriate... :roll:

Andy has voiced a very valid point, the BDGA tag to any tournament endorses that event to a certain set of standards, does it not, and that said does encourage players to travel to events that perhaps they may not have attended if it was just the Mull Open and not on any tour.

Surely a more appropriate answer should be forthcoming, other than an open can of worms...

Tim
As someone who discussed this subject at length with Andy and others in Mull itself, with varying degrees of heatedness, the post was by way of an in-joke with Andy, as opposed to a formal Secretarial response.

Andy is aware of my thoughts, and I am as interested as he is to find out what others think on the matter. Should some other informed (or otherwise) opinions be aired, I may feel the need to make a more involved response...

So get back in yer box Herring :P

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TheGroover
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Post by TheGroover » Tue May 02, 2006 3:21 pm

bruce wrote:
As someone who discussed this subject at length with Andy and others in Mull itself, with varying degrees of heatedness, the post was by way of an in-joke with Andy, as opposed to a formal Secretarial response.

Andy is aware of my thoughts, and I am as interested as he is to find out what others think on the matter. Should some other informed (or otherwise) opinions be aired, I may feel the need to make a more involved response...

So get back in yer box Herring :P
Yup - I got Bruce's point: we did chat about this at length. I just thought it would be interesting to get this out in the public domain and see what everyone else thought about it.

Can. Worms. Opened...

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Post by bruce » Tue May 02, 2006 3:25 pm

Tim Tom wrote:As BDGA Secretary...
Oh yes, and my posts on this forum should most definitely not be assumed to represent the BDGA, or my post as Secretary.

While posting here I retain the right to a sense of humour, or a complete lack of one, depending on the situation.

In fact, I may create myself a seperate 'BDGA Secretary' profile, to remove any confusion.

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Post by madfrolfer » Tue May 02, 2006 4:51 pm

I would be interested in a summary of your official view on the matter Bruce. You two may have talked at length about it, but obviously the matter was not settled.

Rather than go start a new conversation where I may bring up stuff that has already been discussed, can you fill us in? :)
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Post by TheGroover » Tue May 02, 2006 5:05 pm

madfrolfer wrote:I would be interested in a summary of your official view on the matter Bruce. You two may have talked at length about it, but obviously the matter was not settled.

Rather than go start a new conversation where I may bring up stuff that has already been discussed, can you fill us in? :)
Well, I'd had a few whiskies, so my memory is hazy.

My intro at the start of this pretty much spells out my feelings. I'm have sympathy with the BDGA here, because if you organise something and then when you arrive the TD's changed things, then what can you do?

Andy

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Post by bruce » Tue May 02, 2006 7:00 pm

madfrolfer wrote:I would be interested in a summary of your official view on the matter Bruce. You two may have talked at length about it, but obviously the matter was not settled.

Rather than go start a new conversation where I may bring up stuff that has already been discussed, can you fill us in? :)
Well not an official view, in that it isn't sanctioned by the rest of the BDGA board, but my opinions on the matter are:
  • We have Tour Guidelines.

    TDs should abide by all Tour Guidelines, be they the ones about BDGA discount or the ones about Child Protection.

    The Board has only one sanction against non-compliant TDs/Events - banning from British Tour.

    Banning Mull for breaking the rules would almost certainly result in member outrage.

    Rock - Board - Hard Place
The Board is currently looking at putting a section on disciplinary matters into the constitution, but our discussions to date have revolved around player discipline (violence, threatening behavior etc). I hope to expand this to include TDs/Events following certain incidents at the last two events.

My (completely unofficial) thoughts on this are to have a '3 strikes and you're out' policy, possibly taking the form of: 1) Private warning, 2) Public warning, 3) Expulsion.

The reason for 2) is to ensure the membership is aware that an event is in danger of expulsion before the fact, to reduce the member outrage previously mentioned.

Warnings would expire after a set interval, say 1 year for 1), 2 years for 2), 3 years for 3).

As I say, these discussions/thoughts are at an early stage, and are by no means sanctioned by the Board.

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Post by Spider » Tue May 02, 2006 8:01 pm

I agree with Bruce - what's the point having Tour standards and Guidelines if, in practice, TDs can do what they like.
This problem could be overcome by including a section in the event bidding form whereby a prospective TD explicitly confirms that, by submitting a bid, he/she agrees to follow BDGA rules and guidelines in all respects.
Those course owners / operators who want to do their own thing outside the BDGA are of course free to do so.
The BDGA tag on an event implies to players (old and new) that certain standards will be followed - most importantly child protection.
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Post by madfrolfer » Tue May 02, 2006 9:38 pm

Why would the Board be in a hard place at this stage? Has the Board brought this matter to the Mull TD's attention? If so what was the reaction? If it was a honest mistake, then I am sure something could be done at next years event to rectify the situation (i.e. an added discount for players who attended in 06). However if the TD couldn't care less about stepping on the toes of the BDGA, and this is why what happened took place then I think the only option would be for the event to be taken off the schedule, even if only for a season. Let them host an event that same weekend off the BDGA Tour Calendar, then all the members who are 'outraged' can still go up there if they wish. TD's can't be comfortable with the fact that the Board won't take action against them because they host a popular event. The fact that their event is so popular should encourage them to try and make the event better every year to show some appreciation for the players who make the journey.
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Post by Tim » Wed May 03, 2006 7:31 am

bruce wrote: As someone who discussed this subject at length with Andy and others in Mull itself, with varying degrees of heatedness, the post was by way of an in-joke with Andy, as opposed to a formal Secretarial response.

Andy is aware of my thoughts, and I am as interested as he is to find out what others think on the matter. Should some other informed (or otherwise) opinions be aired, I may feel the need to make a more involved response...

So get back in yer box Herring :P
And how would I of been aware of that fact then...

Andy raised a completely valid point in a public arena and you Bruce, who is seen as a voice of the BDGA made a completely inappropriate response. I agree that there is nothing wrong with a joke or two, but it didn't look like that from the outside and there is a time and a place. It looked glib, without a care for what members say or feel.

Tim
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Post by Tim » Wed May 03, 2006 7:44 am

bruce wrote:
madfrolfer wrote:I would be interested in a summary of your official view on the matter Bruce. You two may have talked at length about it, but obviously the matter was not settled.

Rather than go start a new conversation where I may bring up stuff that has already been discussed, can you fill us in? :)
Well not an official view, in that it isn't sanctioned by the rest of the BDGA board, but my opinions on the matter are:
  • We have Tour Guidelines.

    TDs should abide by all Tour Guidelines, be they the ones about BDGA discount or the ones about Child Protection.

    The Board has only one sanction against non-compliant TDs/Events - banning from British Tour.

    Banning Mull for breaking the rules would almost certainly result in member outrage.

    Rock - Board - Hard Place
The Board is currently looking at putting a section on disciplinary matters into the constitution, but our discussions to date have revolved around player discipline (violence, threatening behavior etc). I hope to expand this to include TDs/Events following certain incidents at the last two events.

My (completely unofficial) thoughts on this are to have a '3 strikes and you're out' policy, possibly taking the form of: 1) Private warning, 2) Public warning, 3) Expulsion.

The reason for 2) is to ensure the membership is aware that an event is in danger of expulsion before the fact, to reduce the member outrage previously mentioned.

Warnings would expire after a set interval, say 1 year for 1), 2 years for 2), 3 years for 3).

As I say, these discussions/thoughts are at an early stage, and are by no means sanctioned by the Board.
Thank you Bruce, for all of us "not in the know", although you alluded to an incident that took place at Burnlaw as well, what happened there?

My simple view is that the BDGA tour guidelines are there to standardise and make our tour more professional and that it is remiss of a TD not to follow them, it does make a mockery out of the BDGA and the good will of the members.

If there are issues about the guidelines then these should be discussed and amended where need be, but if the guidelines are in place when an event happens then adherance to the standards should be de facto full stop.

If guidelines are broken during a BDGA & PDGA sanctioned event then action must be taken to ensure that this never happens again and this should be notified to the members, if it was an oversight then a rap on the knuckles will suffice but it doesn't actually sound like an oversight as Angus mentioned arguing the point, this does sound like a blatant disregard of the BDGA and it's members.

Tim
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Post by bruce » Wed May 03, 2006 7:46 am

madfrolfer wrote:Why would the Board be in a hard place at this stage?
The main reason that the board is in a hard place is a lack of procedure/precedent upon which to base disciplinary action. Whatever we do will upset certain members.

Which is why I want to introduce the contitutional stuff mentioned, so all members are aware of the process.

I'm not comfortable covering the board's discussions/actions on this in this forum, suffice to say we're looking at it. There will be no knee-jerk response, but there be a response.

If Angus or others wish to post their full feedback on the event, and discuss what they would do in the board's place, I'd be very interested to hear it, and will feed those thoughts into the board discussions, but other than that, I'm done.

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Post by Spider » Wed May 03, 2006 8:36 am

I've sent some more detailed thoughts to Jester, in response to his request for feedback. No doubt he will discuss any of my issues that he considers valid with the Board. Most are little niggles, but my overriding concern is child safety. I really should not have to sit down with my 10 year old son after an event, to explain to him at length that some of what he witnessed over the weekend at Tourney HQ was not acceptable behaviour.
I realise that Mull has a wild tradition to maintain - if it were a film, it would have required an 15 or 18 certificate.
I dunno - perhaps I'm being too sensitive. If I was not a parent I guess I'd just laugh the whole thing off. But if the BDGA wants to promote the sport as family / child friendly, certain behaviour must be banned from the course & it's immediate environment.
Enough Mulled whine already!
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Post by madfrolfer » Wed May 03, 2006 1:04 pm

Bruce,

You are always very good at answering around questions. Since you do not feel that this discussion warants any of your input, could you at least answer the one question that I mentioned would most likely determine how I feel about this?

Was the violation brought up to the TD, and if so what was his reasoning for not following the guidelines?
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Post by Spider » Wed May 03, 2006 1:46 pm

You haven't met Gremlin, have you Fernando? :wink:
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