18th Quarry Park Open

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West
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by West » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:00 pm

I'd say on hole six making the grass on the tee side of the hole is out of bounds for regular tour events is a bit harsh for Int Ams. This could include rookies who can't physically throw that far which seems tough when we're trying to encourage new people to play. I agree about making the area OB for EuroTour events as they are the top events of Europe so people should be reasonable to play or face the consequences ;-)

On a side note; I've played that hole a handful of times left handed and made it across the stream once so it *is* possible for Int Ams ... throwing an anhyzer towards the river was fun to see it come back :D
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by West » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:03 pm

To make the grass on the tee side OB would lead to an Int Am tee placement at the original hole 8 tee (the longer of the two) and leave the OB the same. But I think we need some more Int ams to be able to do that as Bruce said.
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by Del » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:42 pm

I think the OB from bridge to second post is good. It would make for some more 4's and possibly a few more 2's as people will be squeezed into a more direct line to the basket. I'm not so keen on the In Bounds island as I prefer to give people options and decisions. The thing that would encourage more birdies and make lay-up pars more difficult would be to have a wider OB stream area, so that it starts 20m before the stream and ends 10m after the stream. So you can lay-up before the OB, but will have a long approach; or you go for the bigger drive and if you make it you will probably have a putt. You may well be thinking that landing 10m past the stream does not give you a particularly makeable putt, but if you go for that drive you will be aiming to get at least 10m in bounds, otherwise it's not worth taking the risk, and landing 20m after the stream will give you a chance of the 2. I think that will give you a better score profile, the only downside is that it is a contrived OB.
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by TheGroover » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:23 pm

Del wrote: I think that will give you a better score profile, the only downside is that it is a contrived OB.
You could always dig out the stream and make a river? :wink:
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:59 pm

^^

Do thi,s do this!!! Another pond chance Del, you know it makes sense!!!
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by Mark.A.D » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:57 pm

will you shut up with all the pond talks, next you'll be banging on about sand bunkers!!
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by BOF » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:44 pm

I prefer to give people options and decisions.
Could you expand on this statement with respect to the two holes in the wood, please, Del?

What options do you offer the player here, other than 'throw it straight towards the gap in the hedge'?

Just curious as to the thinking behind the design of these two holes, which I haven't fathomed out, yet.

There are also a few holes that have changed somewhat as trees have grown and matured

e.g. 12 is.now a different shot with no high roll curve option any more.

14 no longer requires the mando due to the narrowing/lowering of the gap off the tee.

Just some observations.

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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by Paul Holden » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:22 pm

Well surely there is a pretty evident risk reward decision as to how far you try to throw in such a confined space. Personally I think this style of hole makes a great addition to the course although I'm not sure that having two of them in a row is ideal.
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by Del » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:10 pm

I wrote...
i prefer to give people options and decisions.
Conor replied
Could you expand on this statement with respect to the two holes in the wood, please, Del? What options do you offer the player here, other than 'throw it straight towards the gap in the hedge'? Just curious as to the thinking behind the design of these two holes, which I haven't fathomed out, yet.
I should have been more specific, and added "in relation to risks and rewards" A good course should require a range of skills, and that means that individual holes should test specific skills. The woods holes put a high premium on a high degree of accuracy, one with a slight dogleg left (favouring right hand backhand) and one with a slight dogleg right (favouring left hand backhand) There is also an element of strategic choice as to how far you try to get with your tee shot. The bushes on either side of the ride that cuts through the middle of the holes are the crucial strategical hazard, because you can end up with no forward shot available. On "To The Dogs" I usually take a driver as I figure I have a pretty good chance of making the gap. I made it 3 times and got 3x 3, the other time I didn't make it and got a 7. If my driving accuracy was poorer I might opt for a lay up with a putter and then attack with the 2nd shot, being fairly confident that I could at least get past the bushes guarding the entrance to the 2nd half of the fairway. On Ashes to Ashes my tactic has changed over time, initially I did try driving through the gap, but success rate was too low, so I then opted to throw a putter 10 to 15m short of the first gap, figuring that I didn't want to risk getting stuck in the bushes with no forward shot possible. The problem then was that the dogleg was too angular for me to shape a curved 2nd shot to the pin, and I rarely got a 3. For this tournament I tried a 3rd option which was to throw a Comet up to the opening, this carried a bit more risk of ricochet or getting stuck behind the bushes, but if I made it to the opening I could throw a straighter approach. In conclusion I think that whetever your skill level, there are important tactical choices to make on these holes: you can be bold and take risks or safely plod up the middle.
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by bruce » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:06 am

Doubtless some holes have evolved, but my record on 12 at the weekend reads 2*forehand, 2*3s, 1*high backhand roc, 1*2, so it's still there. The choice remains whether to throw straight down or try to get around the corner. The mando on 15 still comes into my thinking and is the main cause of me finishing left, but I agree it's just about ready to go.
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by rhatton1 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:58 am

BOF wrote:
I prefer to give people options and decisions.
Could you expand on this statement with respect to the two holes in the wood, please, Del?

What options do you offer the player here, other than 'throw it straight towards the gap in the hedge'?

BOF

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For reference this weekend I saw the following shots attempted from the tee, this was out of three groups a final and watching 2 other groups tee off(sometimes succesfully)

To the dogs:
Backhand putter 20 yards down the middle.
Backhand putter across the ride
backhand midrange across the ride
Backhand driver across the ride
Forehand putter to the ride
Forehand anhyzer across the ride
Forehand roller across the ride

My preference at the moment is a backhand midrange across the ride, if hit very well as i did in the final it gives a 20 meter putt, most of the time it gets you somewhere around the ride. The forehand roller was probably the most successful option i saw there.

Ashes to Ashes
Backhand putter 30 meters up the fairway
backhand midrange to the ride
Forehand driver to cross the ride
Backhand driver to cross the ride
Forehand roller

My preference is the forehand driver to cross the ride, gives me a high number of 3's and 4's on that hole. (not so much this weekend :( )

On both holes I have also seen overarm shots attempted, but not this weekend.

On hole 1 this weekend I saw the following shots:

Backhand driver to try to go past the two trees.
Forehand driver to try to go past the two trees on a slight anny.

Which holes had more options and decisions and made people think more on the tee?
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by BOF » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:54 am

Thanks for your response, Del. Always nice to hear that the Comet is still serving you well!

I think my main frustration with 'avenue'-style holes is that your only option is to throw it straight, with a very small margin of error. If you are out slightly, then the randomness of the ricochet becomes (for many) the deciding factor on the hole. These holes can then determine the outcome of your round.

As a personal preference I enjoy the challenge of flying the disc to a particular spot (on fairway, near basket etc.) via a variety of routes. For example, the old Hole 4 (long ago) allowed you the option of high roll-curve, straight-up-the-middle or hyzer, even some kind of upsidey-down shot could have worked. As time went by, the number of options was reduced until you were left with only the straight-up-the-middle shot.

I'd rather see an open tee with a tightening fairway, to encourage placement and accuracy but offering a variety of routes/throws, rather than the tight tee (trees/mandos/bushes/overhanging branches narrowing the initial flight-path) with the open fairway. For me the satisfaction in disc golf lies in the flight of the disc and the control required to master the flight - not watching/hearing discs smacking into tree trunks and disapperaing off into the undergrowth.

Yes, I agree that throwing the disc deadly straight is also a skill that players need to develop, as well as rolling and throwing sidearm - I just don't want to do it on two consecutive holes!

All this is, of course, academic, when you are restricted by the geography/topology of your course. But I think there is room for some judicious pruning around Quarry Park that might open up a few more of the options for players that were available when the course was a little younger.

Thanks for reading this far...

BOF


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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by rhatton1 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:21 am

BOF wrote:T
Yes, I agree that throwing the disc deadly straight is also a skill that players need to develop, as well as rolling and throwing sidearm - I just don't want to do it on two consecutive holes!

BOF

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That's the key, and you could argue all holes from 8 - 13 are pretty much of the same nature, if there was someway to split these up so you had tight hole, open hole, tight hole that would be ideal but we have looked at ways the course could flow and no decent one has come to light yet to split these holes up. When Del expands his empire across the river maybe things will! :D
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by Del » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:30 pm

Further to Conor's observations, I love having some holes where people play entirely different shots off tee. However, if you make holes more open and allow more choice of shot, you may end up with people just throwing the same kind of shot on most of the holes, and that becomes rather boring and doen't test the range of skills. At it's extreme you get some ex-javellin thrower doing very similar huge upside-down shots on 18 holes, which is impressive for the first few holes, but then the game loses interest. I take your point though, in that some holes which did have options, have lost them e.g. holes 2 and 3 had "S" and "reverse S" options respectively, which have now been blocked by tree growth. It might be feasible to take some trees out to the left of the basket of hole 11 and thus give people the option of a hyzer drive along the river bank, without having to throw over the top of the trees with their 2nd shot. That would mean that you could avoid having 3 tunnel holes in a row.
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by andrewdouse » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:56 pm

2's still playable as a forehand 's', although I only tried it once over the weekend due to the full carpark. Granted with A bit of pruning
it would be easier, as it is in the winter.
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by BOF » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:22 pm

Yes, holes 2 and 3 had some nice options in days gone by - but we mustn't live in the past!
It's a great course, there's no disputing it, but it's character has changed somewhat with the passing years - whilst my game has not!
Oh well, there's always next time...

See you at Burnlaw?

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PS Really enjoyed playing the short course with a 175g Ultrastar on Sunday, before watching the final. Top drawer fun.
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by Mr.Scary » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:07 am

chris's 53 got me wondering if it's the course record on the black course...


1048/ 52 Robins (1st round ever on black course) 05-03-11
1026/ 53 Robins 26-06-11
1020/ 53 O'Brien 16-09-12
1031/ 54 Robins 06-03-11 (4th round) rounds 2 and 3 were played on 'old' course
1017/ 54 Cutler 25-06-11
1017/ 54 Mead 25-06-11


Well done lads.


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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by Paul Holden » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:07 am

andrewdouse wrote:2's still playable as a forehand 's', although I only tried it once over the weekend due to the full carpark. Granted with A bit of pruning
it would be easier, as it is in the winter.
I would love to try this but for me the bush to the right of the tee is just too close :(
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by West » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:18 pm

Paul Holden wrote:I would love to try this but for me the bush to the right of the tee is just too close :(
Next time you're down bring your hedge trimmer ;-)
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Re: 18th Quarry Park Open

Post by MampiSwift » Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:18 pm

Paul Holden wrote:
andrewdouse wrote:2's still playable as a forehand 's', although I only tried it once over the weekend due to the full carpark. Granted with A bit of pruning
it would be easier, as it is in the winter.
I would love to try this but for me the bush to the right of the tee is just too close :(
bushes on right don't come into play with this, andrews line goes between the trees on the left over the short basket!! Total crazyness!!
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