The scoring system debate (again)

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bruce
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The scoring system debate (again)

Post by bruce » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:50 pm

There's been a fair bit of chatter over the last couple of years about how Power/AmStats work, and whether a change is in order. This thread is for discussing the current system and some alternatives.
Breakdown of Tour (I can add more stats in here if people can think of anything useful): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 21uSWFrMnc
Convenient linky to tour results: http://tour.bdga.org.uk/
And PDGA results: Frostbreaker, Spring Fling, Snowbow, Essex, Mull, QP Open, Cyclone, Burnlaw

Current BDGA system
First place gets 100, last gets 1, points evenly decrease from first to last (Gap = 99/(number of players - 1))
Pros
All eligible players get points
The points you get are related to the number of players in the event
Cons
Varied attendance gives varying points per place
Low attendance gives low non-winning scores, which does not encourage higher attendance

Some alternatives
PDGA system
5 points plus 5 points per person you beat
Pros
All eligible players get points (except DNF)
The points you get are related to the number of players in the event
Cons
Varied attendance gives varying points per place including first
Low attendance gives low scores across the board, which does not encourage higher attendance

Possible hybrid solution
100 points for first, 5 or 10 points per place down to zero (see spreadsheet - roughly equates to 10ppp for Open, 5ppp for Am)
Pros
Fixed points per place
Low attendance means more high points on offer, encouraging attendance at smaller events
Cons
Only top 20 (5 points per place) or top 10 (10ppp) get points
Low attendance gives high scores across the board, which may not reflect performance (e.g. last place Open at Mull would have got either 80 or 60 points)

Formula One style weighting
Fix and weight the top 5 or so players (100, 90, 85, 80, 75), then use current system below that.
Pros
Fixed points for the major places
Win 'bonus'
All eligible players get points
The points non-finalists get are related to the number of players in the event
Cons
Complex to administer

Well that's a starter for 10, I'm sure there are other options, let's hear some thoughts!

General questions:
Is it desirable for all players to get points? Looking at this year the lower places seem pretty pointless (pun intended)
Should first place get a 'win bonus'?
Should DNFs get points at all? Or even be included in calcs for points in the systems that use number of players?
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by LostMeow » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:02 pm

<2p>I like the PDGA-style one where you get more points when you beat a bigger field, as I think you should get more points if you beat more people.</2p>
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by bruce » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:32 pm

LostMeow wrote:<2p>I like the PDGA-style one where you get more points when you beat a bigger field, as I think you should get more points if you beat more people.</2p>
Updated the Google doc (link in OP) to show the revised Open T16 based on this method. Not a lot of change, but suspect Am will be more volatile

Doesn't do much to encourage attendance at places like Mull though, only Charlie used his points from there and even that was a tie with his 10th at Snowbow.
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by rhatton1 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:39 am

Think there should be a win bonus, pushing that much higher, the current system at croydon Cyclone meant 2nd and 3rd place was almost as useful points wise in the overall tour as first. First place should be rewarded. If someone has won 3 events and had a low placed fourth, this should count higher than someone who has come 4th or 5th all season long at every event.

The current system is very unfair on 3rd place. You could have the same top 10 people playing in every event over the season and come third in every event, however your score could vary wildly from near 96 points to 80 points depending on how many other also rans competed in the event. Should your points really get higher because a number of junior players and first time tourers join the tournament (am level obviously - although does that raise the question that the ams and open divisions should have a different scoring system as there is a lot more change in playing make up in the ams)

I quite like the hybrid solution or the Formula one system, if it means going to Mull almost gurantees you a decent score then great, that would certainly factor in my decision making and i imagine boost attendance. This year I had an offer of a free ride and ferry trip yet didn't take it, I can only go to a few tour events a year possibly 5 at best, would it be worth me going to a potentially poorly attended event to come second and pick up a 3rd place but only get 50 - 60 points for it? I might as well go to a well attended event where I would expect to come top eight and get higher points. It is only one factor in why I go on tour but it does make a difference if I have to weigh one event against another.

I can't see the point in everyone getting points - in all honesty I'm not convinced points for people entering 1 or 2 events a year really matter to them or the tour as a whole. All BDGA members get a PDGA rating and this is a better barometer of improvement over the years than an arbitary points scoring system.
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by bruce » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:43 am

Worth noting that the PDGA system places a very high tariff on attending the well attended events. 9th place at Croydon or 5th at QP Open were worth 75 points. The only way to get 75 points anywhere else on tour would have been to win at Spring Fling.

I'd like to think I'd have placed top 10 at Croydon, and if I had my win at Burnlaw would have been worthless (points-wise), despite beating the other 6 of the top 7 rated players on tour.

More opinions/suggestions wanted folks...
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by Paul Holden » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:23 am

I have to agree that with the variation in attendance that we have at tournaments in the UK the PDGA system looks like a non-starter.

Personally I like the idea that everyone at an event gets points as at least you are then somewhere on the ranking table and not just in a group of 20+ people with zero against their name.
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by ultiali » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:46 am

I'd like the PDGA system but with a points bonus for those coming 1st 2nd and 3rd at an event. The points bonus should be fixed and not relative to the number at the event. Maybe 45,30,15 points?

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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by bruce » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:58 am

ultiali wrote:I'd like the PDGA system but with a points bonus for those coming 1st 2nd and 3rd at an event. The points bonus should be fixed and not relative to the number at the event. Maybe 45,30,15 points?
I'll try to knock up a workbook showing some of these options and what they mean later.

[edit] Ok, added a sheet showing finishing position in each event (half numbers indicate a tie- 2.5 = joint second)

Clever people can use this data to test out different scoring systems, but my brain has reached it's useful capacity for the day, at least until I refuel it with beer
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by bruce » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:09 pm

At the risk of sounding like I'm talking to myself here :roll:

Caffeine input has helped, updated the sheet so you can see the different scoring systems (use the tabs at the bottom)
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by Jester » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:31 pm

It's all very interesting, and at over 100 views there are obviously people reading, but perhaps folk are just a bit unsure what to say.
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by dunc » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:01 pm

I like the idea of F1 style points and think this could work.

The scoring system could be set to allocate points down to 15th place. looking at the tour attendance stats this would mean most people would have a chance of getting them in every division, only a few at the bottom would miss out (with an incentive to play harder/better next time

I would also consider maybe even advocate removing the "best four results" rule for this scoring system. The tour winner is the person who has accumulated most points. If the scoring system is set right a player winning four events should still beat a perennial fourth place finisher. It may be that were not quite ready for that yet but maybe we could count the scores from upto six events... I don't think at six events with this scoring system that it would necessarily force the big four (and who are they? argument on a plate here...) to play more events but it might mean a higher finish for someone lower down that plays a few more events
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by dunc » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:38 pm

when I said F1 style points I didn't quite mean it as Bruce described above I meant something more like this

Place Points
1 30
2 22
3 17
4 14
5 12
6 10
7 9
8 8
9 7
10 6
11 5
12 4
13 3
14 2
15 1
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by ultiali » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:52 pm

Well I like my idea, but then I would. Think its right that you get more points for winner big events and the bonus points for 2nd and 3rd will make finals more meaningful.

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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by bruce » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:49 am

dunc wrote:when I said F1 style points I didn't quite mean it as Bruce described above I meant something more like this
Thank you very much for coming up with a system that forced me to write fifteen nested IF statements... New sheet in the book showing this now. Some thoughts for discussion.

The vast majority of these systems show a broadly similar top 10, so it's worth thinking about why we would change systems. There are 2 main reasons as far as I see it; 1) to make the scoring fairer, 2) to encourage attendance. The PDGA and Top 3 bonus systems do not encourage attendance at the poorly attended events. On the other hand, they reward players who beat more people, so you can argue that they are fairer. The fixed point systems (5ppp, 10ppp, F1) all encourage attendance at poorly attended events, but does that make them fair?

Dunc's suggestion of scoring top 6 or even all events would place an emphasis on attending more events, which might be seen as unfair on those with less money or family commitments.
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by ultiali » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:14 am

Personally I don't think you should be using the points system to encourage attendance at less popular events. I think we should design a points system that reflects the difficulty or not of winning the event. We should be using other methods to promote attendance at other events e.g. BDGA waiving fees so that entry can be reduced

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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:47 am

I can't believe the couple of quid BDGA tax on each player at tournaments would really make a difference in the decision to tour or not for players - £25 or £23? It's half a drink at the pub in the evening. However that money does make a difference to the BDGA and allows it to go forward with motions like the signage Matt put forward at the AGM (I will get the minutes done, honest) It also pays the insurance without which the tour would struggle to go ahead.

At the moment we are not big enough to be in a luxury position on tour where the tour and its positions are the be all and end all - encouragement for more people to tour at this stage should be the biggest factor in any decision making.

The Open tour will stay fairly consistent with whatever scoring system used as the same people tend to get to more events and the top 5 or 6 at all of them are fairly consistent. It is in the ams where there is much greater variety outside of the top ten placings at each event and different scoring systems would make it fairer as a whole.
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by ultiali » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:20 pm

If you want to use the scoring system to enourage people to tour more I'd rather it was a move to using 6 events instead of four (or similar) than by biasing the actual scores people attain at each event.

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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by Jester » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:38 pm

ultiali wrote:If you want to use the scoring system to enourage people to tour more I'd rather it was a move to using 6 events instead of four (or similar) than by biasing the actual scores people attain at each event.
It's an interesting viewpoint, that effectively forcing people to go to more events (or risk losing out on their true national ranking) could raise event attendance. Obviously such a system is prejudice towards those with more cash, more free time and/or the ability to put life on hold for golf.

Would such a system fit the needs of a minority sport looking to grow its player base?
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by bruce » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:33 pm

I'm good to you people, and don't you forget it. Spreadsheet now includes the top 30 Ams
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Re: The scoring system debate (again)

Post by Jester » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:49 pm

bruce wrote:I'm good to you people, and don't you forget it. Spreadsheet now includes the top 30 Ams
Any reason why the tabs no longer appear at the foot of the sheet?
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