Finals in BDGA Tour events

Does what it says on the tin!
User avatar
Jester
Posts: 1782
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:10 am

Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by Jester » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:53 pm

After participating in yet another rather 'meh' final at Frostbreaker (nothing to do with the event which I really enjoyed, there was just very little to play for in the extra 9 holes) the question came up again in a post-tourney conversation:

Why should BDGA National Tour events have Finals?

The case for:
- They help players progress by giving something to aim for: e.g. 'I want to make it into X finals this season'
- They are an exciting conclusion to an event
- ‘Anything can happen’ in the pressure of a final 9
- New players learn by watching experienced players
- Are used as a recruitment/publicity tool with Joe Public/press: ‘Come and watch the Final on Sunday’
- The have them in PDGA Eurotour events, so BDGA players are familiar with the format if making a Eurotour event final

The case against:
- They are rarely more than a procession of the same familiar faces, esp in case of Open Div
- No one spectates unless their mate is involved (Am finals only. No-one’s watched the Open Final for years)
- Prize-giving is subdued as those not involved in the final often choose head home after lunch
- It drags out the end of the event for anyone not leaving after lunch and puts players off attending because of the later finish
- ‘Finals’ don’t exist in stick golf so the public/press aren’t helped in understanding our sport

There are many more pros and cons. Please add and discuss
Jester
BDGA #128
PDGA #8817
------------------------------------------------------
Croydon DGC: Hyzer Cup Champions 08/09, 13/14

User avatar
rhatton1
Posts: 1692
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:13 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:34 pm

Its nice to aim for finals - but the same could be said for reaching the top group in the final round. That was my aim this weekend (strike that before th weekend my aim was winning - after the first round it was making the top four :D )

They are an excitinf conlusion to the event - more so I'm afraid in Ams and int ams as the movement between places is more likely than in the Open division.

Anything can happen, but with all three divisions this weekend a final nine after the first three rounds would have been pretty much a dead rubber - possibly Ben could have blown up enough to allow Paul to catch him but in nine holes I doubt it. Del and Tweedy had the other two divisions well wrapped up.

New players learn more by playing with top players than watchin them, in a four round format they are more likely to spend more time playing with better players.

When have we ever really used these well as a publicity apart from in British Opens? Possibly Croydon with the world champs.

The PDGA example is a good reason.

Open, I'm afraid just doesn't hold much interest to watch, it is the same people over and over. Until more players improve and this gets more competitive I can;t see this changing.

Absolutely agree on prize giving, Burnlaw after the finals there is no atmosphere as pretty much everyone has scarpered.

A lot of players are now playing for their ratings rather than their final position - 4 rounds helps this 3 rounds and a final doesn't.

For me I think I'm coming round to the argument of 4 rounds in a weekend rather than 3 and a final.
www.discgolfuk.com
richard@discgolfuk.com
Home of the Midlands One Day Series
Talk to us about courses!

User avatar
LostMeow
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:34 pm
Location: London

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by LostMeow » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:39 pm

Can't really decide where I fall on this, but it's certainly something I'd like to see more justification for, one way or another. I think on balance that what I like about tournament golf is trying to put together several good rounds of 18 against the whole field. The final just feels like a 100m race tacked on to the end of a marathon, if you see what I mean.

However, I can see positives to them - the 'grandstand' finish, the potential for supporters etc.

Thought I'd run through Jester's points and add my own:

They give something for players to aim for ... those players could just as easily aim to finish 'top 5' or 'top 3'. Or to play, on average, above their rating. People have imaginations, surely!

They are an exciting conclusion to an event ... maybe, but only if there's plenty of movement and people are paying attention (see other points!).

'Anything can happen' in the final 9 ... just as 'anything can happen' in the first round, and the second round etc. You have to stop playing at some point!

New players learn by watching experienced players ... this would be true if new players were encouraged to stay and watch the Open final in particular.

Used as recruitment tool ... but do people actually come and watch them?

They have them on PDGA Eurotour events ... hmmm.

They are rarely more than a procession of the same faces ... particularly in Open, where the top 3-5 are fairly constant.

No-one spectates ... maybe. We have a fun 'caddy bet' thing with CDGC that ensures a certain amount of support. In the Adv Am final at Croydon I seem to remember a pretty big crowd following us around...

Prize-giving is subdued ... aye, can't argue with that. By the end of Frostbreaker even half the finalists seemed to have left!

Drags out event ... (see above).

Public don't understand ... maybe important if many public turned up.

Perhaps finals could only be used if there are a certain number of players within, say, 5 shots of each other by the end of 3 rounds of 18. Then I could see a justification for a final. If the leader of the field is already, say, 5 shots ahead then don't bother. Yes, I know people have occasionally lost from that position before, but is that really the point of a final?
Tom
ND

User avatar
JesseD
Posts: 470
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:04 pm

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by JesseD » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:42 pm

I like em both :)

for me finals are great when your in em, and fun to watch when,,,,, the weather is nice.

four rounds is great for me as a player, cause i get to play (more bang for the buck)

also with the 4 rounds everyone finish at the same time and the ceremony happen right after when everyone is there, which is nice.

soooo nice.
um,,,, ah,,,, um,,, a,,, um,, ah,,,

User avatar
Neil M
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:48 pm
Location: Eastbourne

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by Neil M » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:18 pm

As a newcomer to tournaments I think I prefer the 4 rounds option. I have made the Int. Am final at The Cyclone twice but over the course of such a short number of holes the chance of me actually making up the required number of shots was incredibly slim (I managed to move from 5th to 4th at the Cyclone last year). It is nice to play with the perceived pressure of a final and to have a few people watching you play but apart from that I think they are pretty pointless.

I reached the top group of the Int. Ams for the final round at Quarry Park this weekend and it felt equally satisfying as playing in a final. I also felt that I had more chance of making up shots and if I hadn't shot such an embarassing final round could feasibly have snuck second place (if Chris had had a bad round) I would not have been able to make up that many shots in a final 6 or 9.

I also think to play four solid rounds over a weekend makes a more deserving winner as well as four rounds is pretty demanding on the body (certainly at my level or maybe I just have a particularly weak body!). You do obviously get more play for your money which is always good.
Last edited by Neil M on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BDGA: 362
PDGA: 46974

User avatar
Spider
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:56 pm
Location: Ullapool
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by Spider » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:33 pm

Scrapping Finals in return for more golf for all would get my vote, even if this would mean an earlier start on Sunday to allow for two full rounds (or one of 27?), so things didn't finish too late.
Hammer time!
http://www.highlandpix.co.uk

User avatar
Steve
Posts: 814
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:33 am
Location: Shrewsbury, Shropshire
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by Steve » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:31 pm

I'm sure there was another thread about 'finals or not', after the first QP 4 round format was introduced... I'd like to read it, Can any one help find it?, I've searched and searched with no joy. I think it might of been Jester who brought it up last time too possibly! :p
[url=http://www.shropdisc.co.uk/]Disc Golf In Shropshire[/url]

[color=red] BDGA # 266
[url=http://www.pdga.org/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=8833&year=2007]PDGA # 8833[/url]
[/color]

MampiSwift
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 4:01 pm

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by MampiSwift » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:03 pm

I'm not too fussed either way same as jesse , wat I did notice was how early we actually finished yesterday . There would have easily been time for a lot more golf in the afternoon so what I was thinking was on the subject of ball golf , yes they don't have a final but they do have staggered starts with the top cards going out last , I think this could have easily been achieved yesterday don't know what people think?
Quarry Park member.
BDGA number :354
PDGA number :45313
Hyzer cup 2009/10 champions
Hyzer cup 2010/11 champions
Hyzer cup 2011/12 champions
Hyzer cup 2012/2013 champions

User avatar
Del
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:30 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by Del » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:11 pm

In my younger days of boundless energy I would definitely have wanted to play 4 rounds. I think 3 rounds would leave me feeling a bit short changed, but fortunately I am not usually in that position. I like the idea of the lead group going out a few holes later so that other players can spectate the closing stages if they like. Four rounds at QP works fine because the course is not too tiring, doesn't take too long to play, and is fairly central in the UK meaning that most people have reasonable travel times to get home. I think it's a different story with Whitcombe, where the 4th round might become a bit of a chore for some people; and if you are heading home a little later on Sunday evening with all the holiday traffic in the summer it's not much fun.
There is a half way house, which is to have a 9 hole final round for 9 groups, which would be the top 12 in each division; or a 12 hole final for the top 16 in each division. The lead cards in each division could head off slightly later. Most people get to play 27 or 30 holes on Sunday; they can watch the closing stages of the finals; they can be there for awards without having to hang around for long; and they still get on the road reasonably early.
Derek Robins
Quarry Park Disc Golf

User avatar
BOF
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:29 pm
Location: Harrogate
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by BOF » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:55 pm

Like those who make the top five from time to time, Finals can be fun. But part of the 'fun' is also playing golf - and if you make the effort to travel considerable distances and give up a whole weekend, to play only three rounds is a bit of a disappointment :( .

All the arguments about encouraging new players and putting on a spectacle for the spectators just don't hold water if you consider how many 'spectators' turn up in their thousands (?) each year to watch the finals at all the Tour Events.

Perhaps for the flagship events (British Open) then Finals are justified...

Holding Finals isn't going to encourage new players, but establishing courses in new areas will increase potential membership and uptake of the sport.
The case for:
- They help players progress by giving something to aim for: e.g. 'I want to make it into X finals this season' - NO
- They are an exciting conclusion to an event - NO
- ‘Anything can happen’ in the pressure of a final 9 - Anything can happen whilst I'm sitting here at my computer - so what?
- New players learn by watching experienced players - does anyone actually watch Finals?
- Are used as a recruitment/publicity tool with Joe Public/press: ‘Come and watch the Final on Sunday’ - Er, why not just 'nip' along to Burnlaw/Whitcombe/Mull if you get an hour spare on Sunday afternoon..!
- The have them in PDGA Eurotour events, so BDGA players are familiar with the format if making a Eurotour event final - Is it really that difficult to understand what a 'Final' is?

The case against:
- They are rarely more than a procession of the same familiar faces, esp in case of Open Div. YES
- No one spectates unless their mate is involved (Am finals only. No-one's watched the Open Final for years). Usually
- Prize-giving is subdued as those not involved in the final often choose head home after lunch. YES
- It drags out the end of the event for anyone not leaving after lunch and puts players off attending because of the later finish. YES
- ‘Finals’ don’t exist in stick golf so the public/press aren't helped in understanding our sport - Irrelevant
.

Just my thr'penny bit's worth.

Finals, only fun if your in them.

We've all travelled and paid to play in a tournament, so let everyone get to play a decent amount of golf and the person with the lowest score after four rounds is the winner.

BOF
BDGA #33
PDGA #8835

http://www.ashvillediscgolf.co.uk

User avatar
TheGroover
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:26 am
Location: Oxford
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by TheGroover » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:58 am

All of Jester's opening arguments are sound. On balance, I'd rather play more golf, so for me, 4 rounds is best. Whether the 4th round should or shouldn't be 18 holes is up for debate. As Derek says, a 4th round of 18 at Whitcombe may not be as fun as the 4th round at QP or Croydon.

One point Jester made was that finals can give you something to aim for. I think "aiming for" the top group in the final round is good enough. I missed the top Adv Am group by a couple of shots at the weekend, and it was a good feeling - great to have been so close, and a feeling that, yes, I can shoot for that group next time. If we'd been playing a final, I'd have been the 5th wheel in the final, which is rarely a great place to be.

More golf for me, please!
----------------
Keep up to date with Oxford's summer league...
Oxdisc blog: http://oxdisc.blogspot.com

User avatar
rhatton1
Posts: 1692
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:13 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by rhatton1 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:28 am

I just can;t help feeling that more competitive golf will make better players.

All the practice in the world is great but we all know the second you step on a tee in competition its suddenly not so easy (for some of us more than others) More rounds for weaker players = more experience and more potential to improve. At the moment the guys getting the most experience of competition golf are those who already have the most experience of competition golf....

Showcase events should have finals, the majority of British Tour events shouldn't.

Croydon/QPand Burnlaw are all quick enough courses to play to handle 4 rounds. Maybe at Whitcombe a 2 rounds of 12 on the sunday (with a break for the toilet etc in the middle) might work better I know there are some PDGA issues with this but it should be workable.

If the field is of a resonable size then staggering the Lead Open group would be good so the last couple of holes could be watched. Maybe even staggering the top cards of all three divisions, As far as I am aware there is no reason why the top Open group has to be playing straight behind the 2nd Open group?

That way there is more likely to be a grandstand finish equivalent to a final over the last couple of holes for all three divisions.

So you load the bases through to hole 14 say and then the top int card goes off after 1 hole has been played, the top ams after 3 and the top Open after the bottom group starts on hole 18. They will be finishing then hopefully half an hour to 40 minutes after everyone else so there would be time to watch the last two or three holes. Best of both worlds?
www.discgolfuk.com
richard@discgolfuk.com
Home of the Midlands One Day Series
Talk to us about courses!

ultiali
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:35 am

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by ultiali » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:42 am

I must admit that when I started playing I was suprised that we weren't playing 4 rounds rather than 3 rounds and a final. I would atttribute just as much kudos to being in the top group for the final round as I would to getting to a final.

IMO though if we should start playing earlier on the Sunday so that prize givings are around 4pm. Should be teeing off around 8am I think.

User avatar
Jester
Posts: 1782
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:10 am

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by Jester » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:06 pm

Some more fuel for the debate:

BDGA Tours should have more golf for all (e.g. Finals replaced with a final round everyone plays in)

Pros
- Playing golf is why we go to weekend-long events, therefore we should try and squeeze in as much as possible
- Everyone pays the same to go to the event, therefore it’s fairer if everyone plays the same amount of golf
- Changing the number of holes played in a weekend doesn’t change the task of trying to be in the lead after the last hole is played
- Everyone in the field is in contention up to the last throw
- The top card can go out later than the rest of the field in the last round so the last few holes can still be spectated
- Players will get a 4th rated PDGA round for their weekend efforts (if the 4th round is 13 holes or more)

Cons
- Four rounds of golf is too much and puts off new/less fit players, esp on longer courses
- Players with long journeys home will be put off attending due to the late Sunday finish
- There isn’t enough daylight early/late in season to fit in 4 rounds
- Maintaining a sensible Sunday afternoon finish time means a horribly early Sunday morning start. Events will become more serious as players opt for an early night on Saturday
- Players staying at hotel/B&B accom will have problems getting breakfast really early on Sunday
- If the 4th round isn’t rated (if it’s 12 holes or less) it’s not worth playing
- A Final Round doesn’t have the prestige of making the Final and the pressure of playing in a Final is not replicated by a Final Round
Jester
BDGA #128
PDGA #8817
------------------------------------------------------
Croydon DGC: Hyzer Cup Champions 08/09, 13/14

User avatar
Neil M
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:48 pm
Location: Eastbourne

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by Neil M » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:21 pm

Jester wrote: Cons
- Four rounds of golf is too much and puts off new/less fit players, esp on longer courses - I think this is true as even though QP is a pretty small course I was still struggling by midway of round 4. I am sure this will become less an issue the more tournaments I play though.
- Players with long journeys home will be put off attending due to the late Sunday finish - Quite possibly. As we had a 3 hour plus drive home from QP on Sunday we skipped prize giving.
- Maintaining a sensible Sunday afternoon finish time means a horribly early Sunday morning start. Events will become more serious as players opt for an early night on Saturday - I think a 9am start is pretty reasonable. Lunch could have been much shorter at QP this weekend so we could have finished at least 30 mins earlier than we did.
- A Final Round doesn’t have the prestige of making the Final and the pressure of playing in a Final is not replicated by a Final Round - I definitely felt less pressure on the final round even though I had a more realistic chance of making up shots than I did in Int. Am final at Cyclone. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing. Perhaps I would have been more focused in a final?
All in all from my limited experience I think I prefer the 4 rounds option.
Last edited by Neil M on Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BDGA: 362
PDGA: 46974

User avatar
rhatton1
Posts: 1692
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:13 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by rhatton1 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:45 pm

Does it need to be that early?

We started at 9 on sunday.

All rounds were finished by 11.30 afternoon rounds were finished by 3/3.30 and the new course is slower.

Croydon and Burnlaw are similar length courses.

Starting earlier on sundays is an issue with public transport. Ben coming up from Oxford hired a car on the weekend as he couldn't rely on a train getting him there on time for 9. At Croydon a lot of people use the buses/trams etc to get to the course, if they are trying to come across town they might struggle.

Does an extra half hour/hour in bed really have a weighting on the night befores antics?

As for difficulties with 4 rounds - we should all get fitter.... we would be doing our little something on the war on Britains obesity. :wink: At the three courses mentioned above anyone of a standard level of fitness should be able to handle 4 rounds. (I must admit to being absolutely shattered sunday night but I think that might have been as I was overcompensating with other muscles for a problmem in my shoulder.)
www.discgolfuk.com
richard@discgolfuk.com
Home of the Midlands One Day Series
Talk to us about courses!

james
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:27 pm
Location: birmingham

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by james » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:42 pm

I personally love the pride of making a final even when in the ams it was nice just to have a few spectators cheering you on. Obviously the only final i have made was at Croydon and it seemed we had a larger contingent of spectators i think mainly down to the fact that it was not the usual players and that myself and Rick had made the final so perhaps there was more interest.
The fact is that until the dominance of open players who can almost guarantee to make a final (Del, Jester, Bruce, Conor, Chris and Matt) can be broken then finals in the top division will not realistically be interesting to watch. However Derek is right some courses such as Whitcombe are just not made to be four round courses as some players in their 'later' years will be at a disadvantage.
My vote goes to have 4 round tournaments where possible but if not a final will do
Ken Climo isn't the only Champ.

"You don't win friends with salad" Homer Simpson

BDGA #135
PDGA #8856

bruce
Posts: 2581
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by bruce » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:34 am

Steve wrote:I'm sure there was another thread about 'finals or not', after the first QP 4 round format was introduced... I'd like to read it, Can any one help find it?, I've searched and searched with no joy. I think it might of been Jester who brought it up last time too possibly! :p
Nope, twas: me http://bdga.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=968

And I'll let this one run a little before I respond...
[Standard post disclaimer] My posts are never intended to undermine the work of the Board or individuals putting in effort to grow the sport, they are my honest thoughts on the best ways to grow the game

BDGA: 145
PDGA: 8824

User avatar
Steve
Posts: 814
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:33 am
Location: Shrewsbury, Shropshire
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by Steve » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:41 am

There was another mate. More like this one (ie 4 rounds or final). Maybe it was tagged on the end of another thread. I remember writing my views on it.
hmmm

/keeps searching.
[url=http://www.shropdisc.co.uk/]Disc Golf In Shropshire[/url]

[color=red] BDGA # 266
[url=http://www.pdga.org/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=8833&year=2007]PDGA # 8833[/url]
[/color]

bruce
Posts: 2581
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Finals in BDGA Tour events

Post by bruce » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:06 am

Steve wrote:There was another mate. More like this one (ie 4 rounds or final). Maybe it was tagged on the end of another thread. I remember writing my views on it.
hmmm

/keeps searching.
You probably mean this one then: http://bdga.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=775
[Standard post disclaimer] My posts are never intended to undermine the work of the Board or individuals putting in effort to grow the sport, they are my honest thoughts on the best ways to grow the game

BDGA: 145
PDGA: 8824

Post Reply