Inclusiveness

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seamus
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:51 pm

I apologise for being brief Tom, I have a strimmer in my hand and I'm about to get messy.
1. You're right there would be ties, tiebreaker should be current player rating.
2. Is up to the Bdga, if I thought I had a fair shake at the Masters title I would play the five events locally and possibly one or two in England as a Bdga member. I believe others would feel the same respectively.
3. Yes TD's decide what dates suits best through Phil.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:04 pm

No worries - no rush on the response!

1. It wasn't the tie I was worried about, so much as whether people would be happy with one player getting 600 points via a few one-day events (where he or she could have been the only entrant in that division, or playing against just a couple of lesser-ability players), versus the other player having got 600 points 'the hard way' via beating large competitive divisions over multiple rounds. I think people will not take such a system seriously. I've thought about this a lot and haven't yet come up with a year-round points competition that actually works. The PDGA-rating competition (who is highest after more than x events) might work as long as we trusted the statistical accuracy of PDGA ratings over small-field events.

2. Under this proposal, (option D), what's the difference between the "five events locally" and the "two in England as a BDGA member"? Why would you need to be a BDGA member just for the events in England? If all events are equal (the premise of this option?), what difference would being a BDGA member make?

3. Could Phil end up having to manage a schedule of 20, 30, 40 events? If I were in that role, I might balk at that, or just let it descend into a free-for-all...

In sum, I think I see the appeal of your model as a 'free-market capitalism' model: let the players and their money decide where they want to play. However, it requires (like free-market capitalism) considerable de-regulation, so might be better with no overall points race and the BDGA stepping back - much as it works in the US - i.e. there isn't a USDGA, there isn't a US-wide points competition, events happen wherever, whenever and for whoever.

(p.s. we're just about to heat hydrated magnesium sulphate to determine the water of crystallisation. Hopefully it isn't going to get too messy...)
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Cooper » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:02 pm

Whatever is decided about the BDGA tour / Competitions points etc...
- A review of the function of the BDGA, what it provides and what it governs also needs to be discussed as these two are linked.
- If the BDGA changes the way in which competitions are managed then it needs a way to still be useful...

My first thought is Insurance
BDGA sanctioned events (1 day / 2 day ... etc) Tournaments are currently covered, but what about leagues?
or
With membership, insurance is covered for that person playing in a BDGA sanctioned event wherever it may be

This then makes the BDGA as a governing body a requirement for clubs and competitions and can be enforced locally...
The club / TD doesn't need to sort out insurance, making their life much easier or the club / TD decides to get players to sign a public liability waiver making the players responsible for their actions (this is never a good idea and a worst case imo)

What is possible? Can it be done?

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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:10 pm

^ this is similar to the Finnish set up, I like it in principle.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:08 pm

LostMeow wrote:No worries - no rush on the response!

1. It wasn't the tie I was worried about, so much as whether people would be happy with one player getting 600 points via a few one-day events (where he or she could have been the only entrant in that division, or playing against just a couple of lesser-ability players), versus the other player having got 600 points 'the hard way' via beating large competitive divisions over multiple rounds. I think people will not take such a system seriously. I've thought about this a lot and haven't yet come up with a year-round points competition that actually works. The PDGA-rating competition (who is highest after more than x events) might work as long as we trusted the statistical accuracy of PDGA ratings over small-field events.
1. What is not fair about one Bdga event per 18 hole course, per year, all the same rules? The Bdga would be supporting all willing 18 hole courses equally.
I think Pdga ratings are the best system in place regardless of field size. You're right though, a minimum requirement for a Bdga event would need to be 3 propagators.
LostMeow wrote: 2. Under this proposal, (option D), what's the difference between the "five events locally" and the "two in England as a BDGA member"? Why would you need to be a BDGA member just for the events in England? If all events are equal (the premise of this option?), what difference would being a BDGA member make?
2. I meant all 7 events as a Bdga member, I was also assuming you'd need to be a Bdga member to qualify for Power Stats.

LostMeow wrote: 3. Could Phil end up having to manage a schedule of 20, 30, 40 events? If I were in that role, I might balk at that, or just let it descend into a free-for-all...
3.I don't think Phil would be inundated, as a matter of fact I don't think much will change at all. I would bet most Td's even given the choice would not want to change the format or weekend of their event. It would be up to the other Td's representing the courses not on the current calendar to fit in to a new schedule for '17.

How many 18 hole disc golf courses are not Bdga events in '16? 4 or 5?
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:23 pm

seamus wrote:1. What is not fair about one Bdga event per 18 hole course, per year, all the same rules? The Bdga would be supporting all willing 18 hole courses equally.

2. I meant all 7 events as a Bdga member, I was also assuming you'd need to be a Bdga member to qualify for Power Stats.

3.I don't think Phil would be inundated, as a matter of fact I don't think much will change at all. I would bet most Td's even given the choice would not want to change the format or weekend of their event. It would be up to the other Td's representing the courses not on the current calendar to fit in to a new schedule for '17.
Gotcha! CLICK! That is the sound of the last piece of the puzzle falling into place :D

Now I'm on your page. I like it and it's making sense. I have added it to the table as option S (S for Seamus):

http://docs.google.com/document/d/1j2Rx ... ukK748/pub

I made some assumptions* so let me know if I haven't quite got it right.

*yes, I know, "make an a** out of 'u' and 'mption'"...
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:26 am

Cheers Tom,
I'm assuming the Bdga Tour Restructure Options will be dealt with at the AGM for 2018?

Also on the "s" cons
- clashes will always occur in tournament scheduling at all levels it is a natural growing pain of our sport.
- the Uk player base is already fairly limited and split.
- To "dilute" something means to weaken its strength, somewhat of a narrow point of view. I would rather think that the Tour would be on a path of fortification through all inclusive efforts.

On a side note if such a Tour system were implemented it would encourage 9 hole courses to expand to a full 18, which was exactly the case for Loch Tay.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by andrewdouse » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:31 pm

Points wise.... What do people think of the MODS scoring?
Fixed no. of points for a place, plus the number of competitors beaten(or something like that!) it means winning more attended events get more points, and makes an overall tie less likely. So if 2 players had both won 4 events (or however many count) the player who won the best attended events would have the advantage, and the title.

Maybe 1 and 2 day events could have slightly different base values, so 2 dayers are potentially worth more...
or the same base value but double the bonus per competitor? (1.5x if its over 3 rounds + final?) so 2 dayers are slightly more valuable than 1 dayers, but not excessively so....

?
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:46 am

andrewdouse wrote:Maybe 1 and 2 day events could have slightly different base values, so 2 dayers are potentially worth more...
or the same base value but double the bonus per competitor? (1.5x if its over 3 rounds + final?) so 2 dayers are slightly more valuable than 1 dayers, but not excessively so....

?
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but IMO, two day events by default are not superior to one day events, they are however longer. There are a few Bdga Tour events that are on the threshold of splitting to two one day events Ams Saturday/Pro Sunday if the TD is inclined. Generally when an event hits 72/90 players of a Pro/Am event it splits to Ams Saturday/Pro Sunday, then when either division fills that division moves to a separate weekend altogether. I've found this is a natural evolution of an expanding event.

We will be changing up how we do points in the Quaich Tour and it will look a lot like what Richard is doing with MODS.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Cooper » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:27 pm

For the Bedworth League scoring I used a very similar approach to the MODs...

It made the league really competitive and made it really difficult to work out the winner even after the last round!
- however i used some vba code within excel to create the scoring so i didnt have to work it all out

The basis of the scoring was:

1 point for every player you beat
1 bonus point for every player you beat that had a better pdga rating than you
However if you beat someone who had no PDGA rating, no bonus points awarded

This made the points really competitive and worked really well for the league (in my opinion)
Open players really had to work hard to keep their points up
As the league was 10 rounds, I had decided to take the players 6 best rounds (so no-one had to worry if they could not make 1 or 2 rounds)
In the end we had 96 players over the league, lowest number for one week was 5 players and highest 12.

I have a bit more automation to develop on the Excel sheet but once its done, if anyone wants a blank copy of it I am happy to make it available.

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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by bruce » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:16 am

Wrt Seamus's suggestion, I would hazard a guess that there will be PDGA sanctioned events at well over 20 unique venues this year, albeit that some will be temporary and some may not be 18s. I'm really not sure the current stats model is any use over that many events. Additionally while that is more inclusive it will still be missing probably half of all PDGA sanctioned rounds.

I would still prefer this to the status quo, but I think there are superior options on the cards.

As an alternative scoring idea, how about the cumulative total of your best X rated rounds? Say 10, the gold standard for Open would be getting over 10000 points. That way there is no issue with players not competing directly against each other, there are big swings possible even in a single event, and it encourages a drive towards higher standards of golf. You could include any PDGA* rated round, as long as the TD pays a BDGA sanctioning fee to be part of the race.

*possibly excepting leagues, due to low propagator numbers and the slightly more casual nature
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:42 am

This might be a better tiebreak procedure in an all inclusive Bdga Tour.
"Where 2 or more players are tied for bonus cashing positions in the overall points standings then the tie(s) shall be broken by totaling the EuroTour points earned by each player at events where they competed head to head. Any remaining ties shall be broken by comparing the players’ actual scores during the same head to head competitions."
-Pdga Euro Tour
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:25 am

bruce wrote:As an alternative scoring idea, how about the cumulative total of your best X rated rounds?
Presume you mean the cumulative total of the ratings of your best (10) rated rounds?

That doesn't necessarily reward consistent play over whole tournaments though...
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:26 am

seamus wrote:This might be a better tiebreak procedure in an all inclusive Bdga Tour.
"Where 2 or more players are tied for bonus cashing positions in the overall points standings then the tie(s) shall be broken by totaling the EuroTour points earned by each player at events where they competed head to head. Any remaining ties shall be broken by comparing the players’ actual scores during the same head to head competitions."
-Pdga Euro Tour
Yes, I think we'd do that, even on our current model.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Jester » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:27 am

james wrote:
seamus wrote:I appreciate your question Andrew, I would like to see Mull, Loch Tay, Moray, Bluebell Woods and Burnlaw plus all on the rest of the 18 hole disc golf courses in the UK with a willing TD host one event per course, all holding the same value with the Bdga in 2017.
If this happened the Bdga would simultaneously be reaching out and establishing a more objective system for EDGC team selection.
Just to clarify are you suggesting that we expand the tour to have 14/15 events potentially?
Would all of these events still contribute towards tour points?
Or is the suggestion that they all hold the same weight in deciding who plays in the euros?
In that situation I feel like Scottish players in order to make the GB team would still need to come down to a fair number of tournaments in the south as if every 18 hole course had a tournament then there would be at least 13 in England. We would probably end up in a situation where at least 2/3 players gained 400 points.
I’ve said this before, but given the way these discussions keep heading I have to reiterate - 'The Tour' as we currently know it (a national series of events with accumulation of points and an overall winner) is not sacrosanct and I implore our decision makers not to use it or refer to it as if it’s something that should be a basis for the future. The competition structure in the UK must be assessed independently on the needs we have as a sport today, and not tied to a model that’s changed little in 20+ years and is showing the strain for it.

When conceived, the BDGA Tour was in reaction to the then needs of the sport. There were no local events and players were spread in small pockets around the country. In many cases players had no local permanent course so travelling to these events was the only way play proper basket courses. It made sense to add up the points scored at these events and crown a champion at the end of the year and thus ‘The Tour’ was born. The number of overall events has varied, the number of scoring events has changed, the two-tier system brought in to include less-developed courses in the schedule (a win was worth 35 points rather than 50) is now one single 100-points-for-a-win tier, and divisions have been added.

Despite these variations, the Tour still runs how it did 20 years ago, except it is no longer fit for purpose. We now have thriving local scenes and clubs where competitions take place outside of national level. There are multiple regional 1-day Tours opening us up to whole new participants and audiences. There are willing TDs wanting to create and run events and fast finding not enough weekends in the calendar to avoid clashes. We need a clear way of selecting players to attend international events. The current Tour structure is a millstone that will drag the BDGA under as its relevance fades. This needs radical thinking and change now based on current and future needs, not incremental creep on an outdated dinosaur from the past.

In all cases, a decision must be based on needs, not on sentiment. If you define the needs of the Players and our TDs through the lens of what the BDGA should represent (constant growth of the sport through ongoing publicity and promotion?) then it will become more obvious which model our competition structure should take to support those needs giving it relevance and strength for the future.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Jester » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:30 am

LostMeow wrote:In sum, I think I see the appeal of your model as a 'free-market capitalism' model: let the players and their money decide where they want to play. However, it requires (like free-market capitalism) considerable de-regulation, so might be better with no overall points race and the BDGA stepping back - much as it works in the US - i.e. there isn't a USDGA, there isn't a US-wide points competition, events happen wherever, whenever and for whoever.
^^^ yes, Tom, exactly. If this approach is what would suit our needs then we should not shy away from it.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:53 am

bruce wrote:
*possibly excepting leagues, due to low propagator numbers and the slightly more casual nature
Yes, I would be very wary of leagues ratings. Bedworths looked skewed on occasion with 6 or 7 propogators. they looked better when there were 10+


QP with 3 propogators were a joke at times. 905 rated rounds for 54 on the blue course even for les pressured non tournament rounds, that felt a bit harsh!! .... I thought these would be weighted against other rounds on the same layout once the league finished but it doesn't appear to have done.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:56 am

Jester wrote:
james wrote:
seamus wrote: There are willing TDs wanting to create and run events and fast finding not enough weekends in the calendar to avoid clashes. .
Yup , seriously struggling to fit in the last 4 MODS, September and October/start November are all heavily congested and trying to get dates that work with potential new venues is proving problematic to say the least!
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by bruce » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:13 am

LostMeow wrote:
bruce wrote:As an alternative scoring idea, how about the cumulative total of your best X rated rounds?
Presume you mean the cumulative total of the ratings of your best (10) rated rounds?

That doesn't necessarily reward consistent play over whole tournaments though...
Yes, that is what I meant. The reward of winning the event should be more than adequate for the event consistency, no?
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by mealticket » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:14 am

Here's my thoughts...

Tour - I'd like to see all pdga sanctioned strokeplay events eligible for determining GB representation and nationals entry, MODS scoring system works really well. Perhaps making the base points proportional to the number of holes played in the tournament, this would give players with travel, financial or time constraints a reasonable chance of being competitive and allow those who can spare whole weekends and commit to travelling longer distances, to amass points more quickly as a reward. The bonus points for players beaten/higher rated players beaten could give better attended events a little boost. Tie breaks could be sorted out at nationals - which could easily be expanded to allow more players to enter.
As far as calendar goes, as long as events on the same weekend aren't too close together I see no problem, just pick a distance limit and stick to it. Why block an event in Inverness because it clashes with an event in Plymouth?

What I most want from the BDGA is easy access to real help with things like getting funding, setting up clubs, setting up courses, running tournaments. Insurance is really valuable too! Does the BDGA have any real idea of the skills, knowledge and available time of most individual members? I fear not. Give me a bit of time to build a new pc first and I'll be happy to put together a survey and skills matrix, I'm sure that we have enormous amounts of transferrable skills and willingness to give a bit of time among the members, if we can coordinate those resources better and direct them where most needed we could achieve great things and take a lot of day to day pressure off of the small group of people who are taking the most responsibility.

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