Inclusiveness

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james
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by james » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:51 pm

bruce wrote:The point is Bonjour that the regional series currently are completely unconnected to the BDGA
I'm fairly certain that at least the MODS operates using BDGA insurance. Or at least it did at the beginning of the year. So not completely unconnected.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by rhatton1 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:04 pm

MODS currently uses BDGA insurance of £1 per head. This can be sourced cheaper privately which is something I am looking at for next year (albeit at a larger upfront risk for me and I would prefer to see the money stay within Disc Golf rather than go to an insurance company)

We have also had some bits in the newsletter and have more coming and events are listed on the calendar here

Other than that there isn't really any BDGA involvement, some BDGA support would be good, the one promise I made last year that I haven't really delivered on (thanks for regularly pointing this out to me James ;) ) has been media exposure - I just haven't had the time to push this on top of the events organisation and it's only really happened with the help of people like Greig and Paul Claridge, it's an afterthought for me as a TD as I am sure it is for most.

More help on this front would be greatly appreciated, each British tour event could use the same, we don't really promote them at all before or after the events, is there a role for some eager journalist/marketer to be created alongside Rich Woods position and mailshot local news before events. There isn't a lot of work involved (I've got loads of newsdesks email addresses and lots of the papers will just print a well written to the point article with photos) Great way of getting free advertising for the sport out there that we never utilise properly, and it would be a good thing for a young persons CV.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by james » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:08 pm

seamus wrote:I appreciate your question Andrew, I would like to see Mull, Loch Tay, Moray, Bluebell Woods and Burnlaw plus all on the rest of the 18 hole disc golf courses in the UK with a willing TD host one event per course, all holding the same value with the Bdga in 2017.
If this happened the Bdga would simultaneously be reaching out and establishing a more objective system for EDGC team selection.
Just to clarify are you suggesting that we expand the tour to have 14/15 events potentially?
Would all of these events still contribute towards tour points?
Or is the suggestion that they all hold the same weight in deciding who plays in the euros?
In that situation I feel like Scottish players in order to make the GB team would still need to come down to a fair number of tournaments in the south as if every 18 hole course had a tournament then there would be at least 13 in England. We would probably end up in a situation where at least 2/3 players gained 400 points.

Seamus, would there be support for the quaich tour deciding players that represent Scotland at EDGC 2018 as I mentioned earlier?

I'm just not sure that expanding the number of qualification tournaments will work as we will create a system where the best players in the country never play against eachother due to a market flooded with tournaments.

With regards to communication I have an open door policy and will happily answer any questions. We are looking at the idea to include board updates in the NL which I hope we can begin sooner rather than later. For now are plans are as I have mentioned in the earlier posts and hopefully we will see more ideas over the next month be presented to the membership.

With regards to the brexit comment. I would point out that the ideas we are presenting to the membership will be a combination of our own ideas as well as feedback that we have had. These are not just independent ideas being presented in a brexit type fashion.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by james » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:12 pm

A promotions officer is definitely something I have thought about. Something for next year perhaps if anyone was interested we could create the position.
We can have 'media coverage like never seen before'. :D sorry Rich last one I swear!!
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by james » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:28 pm

bruce wrote:Collective decision making is a process that starts with seeking opinions and engaging with ideas, that is what I consistently strived to do
Independently coming up with some options and then holding a vote is not an inclusive way of working, it's a way of offloading responsibility for the decision, pretty much like Brexit
I would also argue sir that earlier this year we put together a couple of committees to discuss the tour, membership and website. Opinions were sought including yours and you declined.
So responsibility has not been offloaded in any way.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:25 pm

James my statement regarding every 18 hole course with a willing TD supplying one tournament per calendar year all with equal value in view of the Bdga is the answer to inclusiveness. Before we concentrate on how something like this might be accomplished it must be asked if it is in the direction the Bdga wants to work toward.
james wrote: Seamus, would there be support for the quaich tour deciding players that represent Scotland at EDGC 2018 as I mentioned earlier?
Not really, I feel Pdga rating are better indicator of level of play than Tour Stats. Both are important tools to keeping a players interested but rating are by far superior.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Trevor » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:52 pm

At the risk of being pretentious, patronising and wanky (sorry mr moderator if this offends your delicate sensibilities ), the fact that three board members have entered the debate on this thread is fantastic. It helps BDGA members feel included. I don't agree with a lot of things said from the board and other contributors (100000?) but at least there has been dialogue. Keep it up. Cheers.

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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Trevor » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:55 pm

Trevor wrote: winky woo
Winky woo? Wtf mr spell checker? W A N K Y

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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by rhatton1 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:24 pm

Trevor wrote:I don't agree with a lot of things said from the board and other contributors (100000?)
no need to agree, one day I'll show you the source materials :D
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by bruce » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:17 pm

james wrote: Opinions were sought including yours and you declined.
So responsibility has not been offloaded in any way.
I certainly did not! I said I would happily give my opinion but I couldn't promise time anymore, hence me standing down. That was the last I heard of it
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by bruce » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:22 pm

bruce wrote:
james wrote: Opinions were sought including yours and you declined.
So responsibility has not been offloaded in any way.
I certainly did not! I said I would happily give my opinion but I couldn't promise time anymore, hence me standing down. That was the last I heard of it
And you know what, to add to that my opinions are freely visible and easily sought here, in the public domain, where they have always been. Not behind closed doors in a committee. Sir. :p
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Cooper
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Cooper » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:36 pm

One from me, for what its worth... Sorry its loooong, but feel i should at last speak up.


With regards to the player /member stats etc - the specific number is not important, can we agree that there is a low % of players and leave it there?
- too many posts on this, pointless for someone like me reading it - sry!

With regards to Bruce's comment about competitions being sanctioned by the BDGA..
- theres no enforcement
- theres no obvious benefit
- when i ran a league, no support appeared possible from the BDGA (i did not come on the forum tho, my choice as it seemed like a lot of hassle at the time)
- preassure in this thread has been placed on local clubs to be at the forefront of inclusion, but there appears that there is no support structure or guidance within the BDGA to help clubs be more inclusive.

So whats the point of sanctioning a competition?
- Hard comment, sorry.

With regards to choosing players for the EDGC and other major competiotions, many more discussions required on this, not a simple answer and for it to be really inclusive its going to get complicated! Mark my words on this as it will be a lot of work to get there, at this moment - by the looks and sounds of things the BDGA is just starting to think of inclusion -i know this is untrue, but its due to the comments posted it looks that way.

I work for a large company with over 100,000 employees and I am actively helping for this company to be more inclusive - its a lot of work involving a lot of people. There inclusion position was a complete embarassment last year and was fined heavily because of it, this year it has spent probably more money than what the fine was to try and sort things out. (Guys if you know where i work - please do not make it public around this post as it could get me into trouble, ta)

I am currently looking at forming Bedworth Disc Golf Club (registering it officialy with the government etc) and I'm sorry to say that I do not see the BDGA as the governing body at this moment in time, it has nothing relevant to offer and information is hard to find. I see the PDGA as being relevant as it produces statistics for members, governs the rules of play and thats it. Really these things at the moment only seem useful to the club. The BDGA doesn't offer any kind of insurance for leagues - i did ask the BDGA, merchandise to members or other benefits to clubs.

Regarding postage, if the BDGA are organising merchandise can the cost of postage be reduced by sending some of the stuff out to a BDGA tournament where some people will be there? (just one idea to help)

A few constructive comments on what i have put at the bottom, these are short but don't limit the content within them, they are the start of ideas only not full detail... and forgive me if you do some of these i do not actively keep up to date with what the BDGA does.

Communication
- big or small, send information out using all forms of tech available frequently (ie Forum, FB, Newsletter etc)

Major competition eligibility
- how about running smaller tours in different parts of the UK 1 year (money could be raised for the BDGA here), then a BDGA tour the year after inviting the top x players paying the travel fees, opening the remaining spots to all other players.

BDGA Support
- Know who knows what in the BDGA
- the BDGA board should put people in touch with them in/out of the forum
- Use communications team, use tech (ie Forum, FB, Newsletter etc)

Members Merchadise and benefits
- Consider more tiers of membership
- consider the number of years someone has supported the BDGA by paying the membership
- consider what people do for the BDGA
- and reflect this within the membership cost

BDGA Sanction benefits / Club benefits / incentives
(Could be linked)
- Insurance
- Merchandise for prizes


So what to do....?

Members want more from the BDGA in, from what i have read:

(Please edit this below part of the post forum admins so that people dont have to read everything up to this point)

Communication
Major competition eligibility

BDGA Support
Members Merchadise and benefits
BDGA Sanction benefits
Club benefits / incentives

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LostMeow
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:56 am

With plenty of opinions being gathered about what the BDGA should do and offer, it could be a good time to remind people that the AGM is also the time of year when election of officers to the Board happens (5 positions: National Director, Secretary, Treasurer, Director of Communications, Director of Competitions).

If you're reading this thread and find yourself nodding with approval at some of the ideas that have been aired, PLEASE consider running for election in one of those positions!

For example, if you like the idea of the BDGA offering a full merchandise service to members, I would be more than delighted if you would run for the Secretary position.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by james » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:43 am

seamus wrote:James my statement regarding every 18 hole course with a willing TD supplying one tournament per calendar year all with equal value in view of the Bdga is the answer to inclusiveness. Before we concentrate on how something like this might be accomplished it must be asked if it is in the direction the Bdga wants to work toward.

So this I don't understand. I don't think the Board can reasonable make a decision about what direction to go in without thinking about how it might be accomplished. We cannot commit to something and say yes without first considering how we will go about implementing it.
I'm not sure wether you mean having one tournament per calendar year for each course on the tour or just PDGA events. Then I'm not certain how it would work in either case. If we commit to doing something like that then we need to have a clear idea of how we're going to do it or else we will end up with no clear guidelines on how to work a new system.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:01 am

james wrote: So this I don't understand. I don't think the Board can reasonable make a decision about what direction to go in without thinking about how it might be accomplished. We cannot commit to something and say yes without first considering how we will go about implementing it.
I'm not sure wether you mean having one tournament per calendar year for each course on the tour or just PDGA events. Then I'm not certain how it would work in either case. If we commit to doing something like that then we need to have a clear idea of how we're going to do it or else we will end up with no clear guidelines on how to work a new system.
In 3 years I have been on two Bdga sub-committees discussing Tour reform and other possible reforms which included numerous Skype chats and email chains. I don't understand how this is not an appropriate amount of time to either have a plan to be more inclusive or not. The only reason I bring up Tour reform is because if it is done properly both my inclusion issues will be solved.
Tom posted this in April on a 5 page thread that started in Nov '15 regarding Tour format ideas https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j2R ... ukK748/pub
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:39 am

seamus wrote: In 3 years I have been on two Bdga sub-committees discussing Tour reform and other possible reforms which included numerous Skype chats and email chains. I don't understand how this is not an appropriate amount of time to either have a plan to be more inclusive or not. The only reason I bring up Tour reform is because if it is done properly both my inclusion issues will be solved.
Tom posted this in April on a 5 page thread that started in Nov '15 regarding Tour format ideas https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j2R ... ukK748/pub
Thanks for bringing that up, Seamus. I would be really interested to hear if one of the options I detailed there is your preferred one - or, if what you would like to see isn't listed, would you be able to give a similar summary of your proposal? (i.e.imagine an empty row on my table for Option F and fill that in?)
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:27 am

D. for one calendar year only, see where players want to attend then reinforce it in 2018 with a 4-6 Majors concept.
In the details I like how you describe a "most improved" award using Pdga ratings, all it needs is a time frame.
I don't agree that the tour will have no structure, traditional tournament times should be respected, the Bdga would still set Nationals and the British Open as well as the time frame of the tour in general. The Board would also need to answer to all the complaining.
D. Pros - I'm all in there, put more onus on the Td's, would it be possible have Td's input to power stats?
D. Cons - Change the Power stats from top 4 to top 6 events and its the same tour, assuming James is correct there would be 14 events.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by bruce » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:58 am

With D I don't see what the BDGA is doing? Although Seamus is suggesting retaining some kind of power stats I think?
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:27 pm

seamus wrote:D. for one calendar year only, see where players want to attend then reinforce it in 2018 with a 4-6 Majors concept.
In the details I like how you describe a "most improved" award using Pdga ratings, all it needs is a time frame.
I don't agree that the tour will have no structure, traditional tournament times should be respected, the Bdga would still set Nationals and the British Open as well as the time frame of the tour in general. The Board would also need to answer to all the complaining.
D. Pros - I'm all in there, put more onus on the Td's, would it be possible have Td's input to power stats?
D. Cons - Change the Power stats from top 4 to top 6 events and its the same tour, assuming James is correct there would be 14 events.
OK, great - this feels like progress!
(I was trying to summarise your input when I wrote option D, so I'm glad I got it mostly right)

I like the idea of a trial year, for sure.

My questions/concerns, getting into the nitty gritty of it, are:
1. Would TourStats mean anything if people could earn them playing anywhere at any time (at any sort of event)? Even extending it to best 6 events, I could see two players easily both getting 600 points (6 wins), potentially without ever actually playing each other. One player could have got them at small scale (one day?) events and the other at 72-player fields over 3 or 4 rounds of 18. Who's the winner?
2. What would BDGA membership represent in this paradigm? Would it give the bearer money off each tournament? If no, that's potentially another nail in our coffin. If yes, what are we offering in return for the money off?
3. As mentioned in my 'Cons' column, although this assumed no TourStats being awarded, it does seem to render the BDGA largely pointless - we're not coordinating the Tour, because events are happening as and when TDs feel like it.

As a radical suggestion, what if the BDGA ceased to be a members' organisation entirely? It could just exist as an organisational body, overseeing national rankings and national competitions...
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:30 pm

bruce wrote:With D I don't see what the BDGA is doing? Although Seamus is suggesting retaining some kind of power stats I think?
The Bdga continues with their current agenda, Power stats would be extended from 10 events to 14ish, same system.

One aspect not considered is tournament format. I'm suggesting full TD choice on format, 1 day 36 hole events carry the same value as 2 day 54+ hole events.
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