A Healthy Debate

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Mark.A.D
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Mark.A.D » Fri May 16, 2014 12:50 pm

I need some popcorn
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rhatton1
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Fri May 16, 2014 1:28 pm

bruce wrote:We agreed I'm right ;)


(how's that for misrepresenting your position?)
And I shot a great ace. Well done me :wink:
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Phil Wood » Fri May 16, 2014 2:02 pm

ok, im going to try to summise and then try to bring a little focus back.

Hatton believes that any money raised (via sposorship/tourny) would be better used as reinvestment into future course development rather than prize funds. A perfectly valid point.

Bruce countered that the development fund has been availible and only a small sum has been used in the last 18months. He also noted that funding has not knowingly been an issue for any course installation to date. they then flirted alot and made several accusations at each other.

Questions were asked of a the value DG can offer to a sponsor, there was no real answer, but question then turned if sponsorship was best used to supplement prizes. - to clarify B Tier events must have $500 or £300 added to the prize fund.

Questions of does ££ help fill a tourny field? All of which is interesting conversation but slightly away from crux of what i believe is more valid discussion.

What we havent heard is opinons from TDs as to how they would feel to run less frequent, but bigger/more professional/insert own preferred term events? is there appitite to try and raise sponsorship? What if we had less events and only at c-tier minimum - TD's discretion to improve where they can? would players feel less affinity to a more spreadout tour? would it mean every event is a sell out as people are clammering to play competitive golf at a course they havent played for 18months, would it mean the tour events become special? would it mean some of our venues would suffer if not used year on year?

Lets put a scenario together, 2015 sees the tour reduce to 5 events. Quarry park, Bristol, Dunbar, Burnlaw and Essex. All other TDs have 12months to start fundraising/planning for their event. It doesnt stop them running one dayers. 2016 we see events at Croydon, Kilbrony, Bedworth, Mull and Manchester. What does that mean to players? ok, so less events, i can plan to make more/less/only my home event. if i dont go to all/most im not going to win the series title. But if i do go, what kind of tournament am i going to? But every event the TD is busting a gut to make it the best event possible, im getting tourny discs/tees/whatever, there is a planned social on the saturday night, the course was in immaculate condition...

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LostMeow
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by LostMeow » Fri May 16, 2014 3:25 pm

My 2p:

I definitely agree with trying to raise the standard of events. Making sure they are as 'professionally' run as possible and inclusive of players at all levels to get people coming back for more. Some competition for places on the Tour schedule might help encourage this evolution. Perhaps the next logical step after insisting on baskets way back in the day is to insist on tee pads (that aren't just dirt)?

I don't like the idea of dropping to only 5 events. I get to as many as I can and enjoy the variety available on the Tour - with fewer events, given that I'm bound to be busy one or two of the weekends, it just means I'll get to play fewer Tour events.

Committing to B-Tier only just means we're committing to some arbitrary PDGA rules for the tournaments, taking away our flexibility. I can't really see the point in constricting ourselves like that.

I'm not hugely into involving money as a driving force on the Tour. In my opinion, it's when money gets involved that the nastier side of sports often evolves. Avarice brings out people's dark side. Instead of playing the game for love of it, they start playing it for cash. But that might just be my fluffy liberal opinion. In my opinion, having what are relatively small cash payouts doesn't legitimise our sport as much as larger numbers would. But you could reasonably contend that one will follow the other.

As a TD, being forced to raise £500 (or whatever) of sponsorship would be a huge put-off for me. I'm not into asking people for money, especially if I'm not convinced of what they get in return for it beyond some sort of vague 'exposure' - everyone seems so hard pressed for cash these days. I also worry that as our disc golf community is still relatively small, the same people/companies would end up being hit upon again and again by sponsorship requests. Because we don't get spectators (really) the sponsors are advertising to the same (small) group of players again and again. That opinion doesn't help me 'sell' convincingly to potential sponsors and if I said anything else I would feel disingenuous. That's just my opinion. I guess I don't have to TD tournaments if I don't like it!
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Fri May 16, 2014 3:33 pm

Can I go back to yesterday and write the above instead ^^ Says almost all of what I have been trying to say a thousand times better than I have managed it.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by seamus » Fri May 16, 2014 7:18 pm

Phil Wood wrote: summise

Hatton believes.

Bruce countered.
Rich,
What do you think of changing the name of the tour to "Bdga-The Dark Ages Tour"...? The 80's were great!
Phil Wood wrote:What if we had less events and only at c-tier minimum - TD's discretion to improve where they can? would players feel less affinity to a more spreadout tour? would it mean every event is a sell out as people are clammering to play competitive golf at a course they havent played for 18months, would it mean the tour events become special? would it mean some of our venues would suffer if not used year on year?
Tour events ARE special. I wouldn't imagine you could force any TD to host a B-Tier, but the ones who volunteer should be on Tour.
We barely made the minimum for a B-tier at The Battle (Thanks again Woodstock) and I hope we never look back, it was the 1st B-Tier in Scotland and I won't be satisfied until we run the first A-Tier on UK soil(is that true?). Its a long way from B to A but I've seen it done and I intend to enjoy the trip.

Phil, I can understand why you would want to strengthen the tour by temporarily shrinking it to a new standard, what I do not understand is why you would allow potential sanctioning money from (1day or 2day) non-tour events to only benefit the Pdga?
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Paul Holden » Fri May 16, 2014 9:58 pm

Warning: The following are my thoughts as a player, and probably a new age hippy (I was born in '67). This post is a bit of a mess, despite an hour of editing and re-writing and also considering not posting it, or posting something much briefer, several times, but deciding in the end that I just need to get this out of my head. Also there are several self-deprecating comments in the following which, although made in a humorous tone are seriously intended to throw a light on the bias implicit in my point of view on this matter.

Please note that I mostly skipped the back and forth between Rich H and Bruce as I am not inclined to comment here on the role of the BDGA and funding etc. just on cash payouts at tournaments...

Catching up on this thread, these are my _personal_ thoughts on a few of the comments made. I hope no-one feels quoted out of context, please just say if you do...
seamus wrote:
rhatton1 wrote:This is still a tiny selection of people that even then aren't really yet good enough to compete regularly for cash payouts (beyond the return maybe of the entrance fee) at an open level
Sorry Rich but I disagree, money (sadly enough) is a main focus for most of us in our lives, the ability to win it is a very satisfying experience and quite motivational. Before moving to Scotland I had never been involved in a league or tournament that did not have a cash payout.
Seamus, can't you see the self contradiction in your statement here, in America money was the main focus, now you are not in America it isn't.
I guess that could just apply to Disc Golf but I don't see an awful lot of other sports leagues in the UK where cash prizes are the big draw, maybe I'm just involved in the wrong sports.
I'm not saying (at this point) that cash payouts are wrong just that they may not be necessary, not in the UK anyway.
seamus wrote:There is a very different culture here in regards to cash payouts at disc golf events, It felt strange to charge someone for league and not payout, it still does, just something I was used too.
I would suggest that there is just a very different culture here with regards to money in ("amateur" i.e. part-time) sport. This may be because I'm a middle class twit and view the world through rose tinted glasses?

seamus wrote:I think if tournaments paid out without raising entry fees everyone would eventually become accustomed to it fairly quick, especially if you are the one being handed the money :)
Yep everyone would become accustomed to it, the people getting paid would be happy with it, spot the difference.
bruce wrote:I fail to see why a model that seems to work all over the world would suddenly cause resentment here.
Perhaps because making something directly about money just about always causes resentment, especially when it wasn't about money before?
bruce wrote:
rhatton1 wrote:Come on Bruce you know that's not what I meant, of those in the 50% the majority get the stake back big whoop ( £8 - 10 ). the only ones CONSISTENTLY (I'm not saying others don't pop up) ending up in the top 5 (the only place the money is really winning - above what you have paid to enter the tournie) are pretty much those you mention in the top 7. That's by the by anyway.
That's specifically why you need the sponsorship. With £500 added cash at Chilly Chuck plus the entry fee money, it would have paid like this:
So with all the sports in the UK that are bigger than Disc Golf and don't "pay out" it is a good idea to move to a model that needs sponsorship to make pay outs work? Question not a putdown.

Also is this just another example of the word GOLF taking precedence in the minds of those who are trying to find a future for the sport? The PDGA certainly sometimes appear to feel that the sport has to follow the name (or that part of the name).

seamus wrote:
rhatton1 wrote:Money is integral in getting courses in the ground - it is totally unnecessary in filling tournament fields - the natural urge to compete does this by itself.
That's a naive statement, The East Lothian Tourism Board will be assisting our efforts to grow The Battle next year due to our Pro Purse and its effectiveness in drawing players from a variety of areas with no marketing or advertising budget. Hosting an event with an increasing pro purse or larger amateur prizes is a natural evolution for most events that want to continue to expand.
Holding an event that people want to play in will help it expand, my belief is that people want to play for many reasons. Your opinion seems to be that people are only/primarily motivated by money so that is the main thing that matters once you have the basics of the event down, that makes me sad. Also you seem to be saying that offering a purse is a good replacement for marketing or advertising but when you offer a purse you are only drawing from the existing base of players that are likely to win it. What this says to me is that you want to run a successful tournament, with big name players, which is good, but that you aren't particularly interested in running a tournament for people like me that just want to play in a well run social tournament.

This is probably, a flawed analysis but it makes a decision easier, since I'm not a Pro player I'd be making no contribution to the type of tournament you appear to want to run. When I am choosing which tournaments to go to next year, I can only make so many, I guess I will stick to events that emphasis playing over winning money. I wish you luck with your way, really, it's just not my way.

:shock: Bother, how did that happen :cry: I really love playing at Dunbar :(

I think it's obvious at this point that this thread started getting to me, I was going to delete the last couple of paragraphs and stop with the previous comments but I thought again and decided it was a prime example of what happens when money gets involved...

Sorry but I really, really, really dislike the way that (many in) the US (in particular) is (are) obsessed with professionalism in (or more like monetising) sport to the extent that a sport isn't a real sport until it has a TV deal and can be franchised.This then seems to permeate the view of all sport in the US, even when such monetisation is inappropriate or, if you like, unobtainable. Disc sport has a history of people changing the rules a bit, slapping on a new name so they can (c) and TM and then trying to sell their creation. I'm not saying that is what happening here. I am saying that my emotional reaction to this attitude to sport is strongly influencing my opinion on what does appear to be happening here.

Sorry that's just the way I feel. For me sport is about participation and this sort of professionalism kills it, not because the participants shouldn't be paid but because the entire enterprise becomes about making money (satisfying sponsors, cutting deals, financing ever more expansion) and not about playing sport.

Final thought - all this probably explains why I'm not a better player than I was 2-3 years ago.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by seamus » Sat May 17, 2014 8:01 am

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Paul and you are right the sports culture is different here and I miss the American system more than Apple Pie and Vermont cheddar.
I think there needs to be a change in order for the sport of disc golf to grow in the UK. The system I see at a majority of events here is cheap and cheerful, keep the entry fees low, discount..discount, cheap lunch, couple of trophies and off you go back home after traveling a large distance to enjoy 3-4 rounds of golf with your mates. Absolutely nothing wrong with this as part of the sport if the TD chooses to have this type of tournament. I feel this system is partially to blame for placing the UK far behind in the disc golf world. My guess is there are only a few places in this country where more than four 18 hole courses are within a days drive, to parallel that with Massachusetts its about 1997. (now there are 40+ courses)
There are many new 9 hole+ courses sprouting up in the UK, as those courses mature it will negate the need to travel great distances, you will attend these tournaments because you want to not out of necessity which will in turn allow the opportunity for TD's to grow there events by generating more from entry fees.
I'm agreeing with your position Paul, Rich & Tom, I'm attempting to describe a layer of competition missing from disc golf in the UK and that layer, which is the cash payout layer, grows the sport as part of a multi faceted approach. Its not just a greedy self centered American approach to our sport, its a world standard with proven results. Cheap and cheerful events are fine but not as the standard because they fail to create funds which smart TD's and course owners will reinvested back into the sport.

Hosting more B-Tiers in a calendar year as part of the British Tour and having the courses that can support this are all part of setting the stage for the next generation of the sport.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by BaggerBlakehill » Sat May 17, 2014 8:41 am

Ok so here's my thoughts from the perspective of someone really quite new to the sport however before I start I must say these are simply my opinions at this time and I'm quite fickle and have been known to do a 180 at any given moment :) I'd also like to apologise for any unintended offence caused...

Right, my first piece of feedback is with regards to the image of the sport itself in this country; could be better :( What I mean by this first of all is that we have a national organisation for the sport with a website that I often point people towards when they ask about the sport. Even though we've already completed 5 events plus the BO, we're still showing only the results of last years events; result = not great. Secondly though (and likely the point that will cause the most controversy) is that from the website anyone can access the forum which we're using right now. And what will people find on said forum? Well, they'll find BDGA board members having full blown 'strategy debates' that essentially turn into back and forth mocking and bickering! Now I'm all for openness around the future of the sport and I find it really interesting to read some of the posts and debates that go on however I do feel that some of these arguments (calling a spade a spade) would be better left to less open spaces. Absolutely, take Seamus's questions and feedback on the pros and cons of prize money and any other suggestions etc that come up. But when it comes to debating those with the board, I believe somewhere a little less public would help give the organisation more prestige.

You guys do a great job though and I'm not for a second trying to lessen what you've achieved thus far so please take this as constructive criticism, not simply a slagging off.

Regarding the point in hand though... :)

I personally like Phil's idea of a more condensed tour but only if we made sure that there were also plenty of 1 dayers to ensure people still had regular tournament to attend. For me, travelling up to Burnlaw was great but that whole weekend cost me more than £350 (train, food, hotel, entry fee) just to attend a single tour event and I knew I'd not be "cashing". The thing is that at the time I could afford to do that both financially and in terms of family "permission" however I know that won't continue forever. My aim right now is to win the 2015 AM title and to do that I need to attend events, play with the better players and learn from them. I'm not there to win money and I don't think it would draw me personally but I don't think it's a bad idea as one of most popular questions when I tell people I'm going to a tournament is "how much do you get for winning?".

I also like Phil's idea of these events being B-tier however if you're then insisting the TD brings in sponsors, I suggest the board put together a 'sponsor smoozing' strategy pack they can provide the TDs with so as to align the message the sport is trying to give. I also believe there's nothing wrong with using entry fees to spend on advertising and paid journalism too if it's not being offered for free.

Lastly (and yes it does leave a bad taste in my mouth ;) ), I have to agree with Rich's suggestion around the idea of a self-perpetuating course fund scheme. Yes, it sounds a little too much like a pyramid scheme or whatever but I genuinely think it has merit and see no reason why it can't be setup irrespective of whatever's agreed on this particular subject.

Wow, that's a lot of stuff dumped out of my head and like Paul, I've read through this a heap of times debating whether or not to post it or not but hey, it's only words and shouldn't cause any real harm ;) That being said, please feel free to correct anything I've said and put me in my place if I'm so far from being right it's not funny
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Mon May 19, 2014 9:29 am

Paul Holden wrote:
seamus wrote:I think if tournaments paid out without raising entry fees everyone would eventually become accustomed to it fairly quick, especially if you are the one being handed the money :)
Yep everyone would become accustomed to it, the people getting paid would be happy with it, spot the difference.
bruce wrote:I fail to see why a model that seems to work all over the world would suddenly cause resentment here.
Perhaps because making something directly about money just about always causes resentment, especially when it wasn't about money before?
This is something that I was trying to vocalise to Bruce last week at Washbourne and couldn't put my finger on what it was I was trying to say - over the weekend I have been thinking about this more and Pauls statements above have backed up the conclusion I was coming too, basically this:

Read Reddit, different forums on Discgolf review, discgolfcoursereview etc. and time and again there appears to be a large selection of people put off playing in tournaments by this monetization - this is obviously only anecdotal evidence but there is a vast amount of this anecdotal evidence.

What measurable benefit does a pro purse add to the local game or the sport in the country as a whole? - genuine question - please give genuine answers rather than abuse and accusing me of conservatism, well argued facts can change my mind, abuse/snidey comments etc will only harden it the other way :D . Is this what as a TD you are trying to achieve or are you just trying to achieve the growth in terms of player numbers of that event? If that is the case then the argument that money is not needed to fill events is completely valid as long as there is a big enough local player base (see Croydon, QP near full fields as argument) - to get a big enough local player base you need exposure to the sport which is not created by tournaments but by courses in the ground and well presented courses with disc hire facilities on hand to boot.

Just as point of argument taking this on a step (this is generalising to a large extent to make a point) - having a pro purse, of £10000 say, at each BDGA event would completely fill out the events, probably mainly in the pro division at the expense of the amateur - however they would be completely filled with overseas players, giving as far as I can see, no measurable benefit back to the sport in this country. This would be great for the individual tournament but would be rubbish for the British tour (how could we possibly get a good idea of British based players standings when they would be competing far down the rankings (Jester has argued about how playing with overseas players instead of against your peer group in the past can have a very different effect on shot selection, making a reflection of your final standing worhtless in terms of an overall tour ranking) amateur players (the growth of the sport) would be alienated from the events due to the pro purse. You could argue they may come along to spectate and hopefully learn something - I am dubious of this when you consider that most free per view live streaming broadcasts of big ticket american events only seem to get at most 1000 people on line at a time. When the PDGA itself has 50000 + members and the overall playing community is estimated now in the US alone to be over 1 million casual players (generalised numbers I have in my head I don't know where from, I haven't searched for the real ones, please let me know the exact statistics if I'm massively wrong Bruce :) ) this is a pretty poor statistic and would suggest a complete apathy to large scale tournaments to anyone outside of them despite the large sums of money involved in them.

One point that Bruce raised as we walked as to why I feel that it is strange that we should expect our peers to receive money for playing is that they are all friends and that it doesn't quite sit right as a result - especially as those friends will be winning money put in to some extent by me ( a point originally at the start of this thread I didn't have a problem with but as this thread has gone on my opinion is going completely against pro purses) . This probably has truth in it and in itself is a great argument for not doing it - as Tom says above money tends to bring out the uglier side of the sport. One of the things that gets mentioned time and again by outside visitors to our tournaments is the great fun relaxed and above all friendly atmosphere in the events, especially in comparison to events in America (one of the points i see on the american forums that alienates people from playing in them - the word douche gets used a lot in descriptions of players met on tour there) This atmosphere is in no small part generated by the lack of money in the tournaments keeping it fun and friendly. This atmosphere I would suggest has a greater draw for players to UK tour events than money (of the level we could put in)would - although again I am afraid this is pretty much unquantifiable it's just my opinion.

Just stating that it works elsewhere is not a good enough argument in my opinion to completely change the British Tour - I would like to see evidence of how this works, it isn't just a case of trying it and seeing how it works - this is a huge step change in the direction of the sport in the country and needs to be made from a better position than "why not, others do it?" once the move has been made, even if it is not beneficial it will be very hard to go back. Pro purses (not tournament standards raising which I can only see as good thing) + huge growth in the American scene are in my opinion not closely related - I struggle to see the link between the two, and have not yet been presented with an argument that backs it up. It's looking for causality and linking two results that aren't necessarily closely linked - the more likely way round is the huge growth in the American scene has raised tournament standards and produced larger pro purses - crucially the huge growth would have happened anyway once growth in certain areas reached tipping points and clubs expanded outwards. This is a tipping point we are about to witness in the Midlands and from the looks of things Croydon + possibly Bristol around the same time.

Nick - very good points one I would argue though is for board members not being allowed to state their opinions on this forum for fear of public perception, this is unfair really as they all have a vote and say just as every other BDGA member does and should be allowed an open forum to make them, certainly though as you say the insults/patronisation etc should be left out, unless they are clearly tongue in cheek. I would prefer to see this debate in public rather than behind closed doors so all can be involved in the debate rather than a few. ( whilst Bruce and I will argue till the cows come home when we have a difference of opinion with neither side ever ready to admit defeat, we're both aware this is all just a fun - often infuriating - opinionated intellectual battle, from outside this can sometimes be perceived as differently than we individually would view it and the main thing to remember is that when he does not agree with me his opinion is worthless although when he does agree with me he is a genius amongst men :wink: )

EDIT* Please note the viewing figures I've quoted above are the largest i have ever seen whilst watching, I'm sure there have been more at a given time and someone can find those figures - but the average of online viewers watching at the same time as me in the early hours of a saturday morning is around 100 people -it's tiny - and the comments being made under the videos appear to be mainly from European based players - not really sure what this means but suggests to me a lack of interest in events by the American public despite all the prize finds.
Last edited by rhatton1 on Mon May 19, 2014 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Phil Wood » Mon May 19, 2014 9:42 am

Paul, Tom, Nick thanks for your thoughts. It really interesting to hear from players at different points in the golfing life and gain an understanding of what they want from the tour.

seamus wrote: Phil, I can understand why you would want to strengthen the tour by temporarily shrinking it to a new standard, what I do not understand is why you would allow potential sanctioning money from (1day or 2day) non-tour events to only benefit the Pdga?
Not to sure i follow Seamus, i havent said anything about sanctioning money from events - 1 or 2 day.

i think you refer to your earlier question you asked regarding 1 day events counting as BDGA tour events - i dont think that would work. Players will travel for a weekend of golf but not for a one day competition. In my eyes it would comprimise the validity of the tour, even if they are attributed "half points".

There is no reason why non tour events have to be sanctioned but players like getting their events and rating in.

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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Mon May 19, 2014 9:52 am

Phil Wood wrote:

There is no reason why non tour events have to be sanctioned but players like getting their events and rating in.
This is very true - it's why I ran the first UK based PDGA sanctioned one day event in the first place to give players a further opportunity for stats + the fun of more regular competition. PDGA stats are a big draw to many players being the Discgolf equivalent of the PGA handicap system. Only being able to generate them at 2 or 3 tour events a year doesn't give you a good idea of your progression as a player. The draw of stats doesn't work for all but it has a pull for many
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Jester » Mon May 19, 2014 10:08 am

rhatton1 wrote:(Jester has argued about how playing with overseas players instead of against your peer group in the past can have a very different effect on shot selection, making a reflection of your final standing worhtless in terms of an overall tour ranking)
You’re right, Rich, I did say that, but I’m not sure why you’ve chosen to take it completely out of context. I simply proposed in a very different discussion that any player (overseas or otherwise) taking part in a tournament affects the outcome and therefore should be included in Tour point calculations. Nothing to do with prize money or pro purse.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Mon May 19, 2014 10:25 am

Jester wrote:
rhatton1 wrote:(Jester has argued about how playing with overseas players instead of against your peer group in the past can have a very different effect on shot selection, making a reflection of your final standing worhtless in terms of an overall tour ranking)
You’re right, Rich, I did say that, but I’m not sure why you’ve chosen to take it completely out of context. I simply proposed in a very different discussion that any player (overseas or otherwise) taking part in a tournament affects the outcome and therefore should be included in Tour point calculations. Nothing to do with prize money or pro purse.
Because it was the best argument I could think of against the obvious counter argument to my comment - that you could still have a rank for UK players whether Europeans were there or not - and you had already argued it better than i could elsewhere. Their attendance effects the British players result - yes you could still rank 1 - 10 British players and award points differently from our current system (if yo had 20 -30 European players in attendance powerstats would be pretty worthless I would have thought - but I'm not a statistician so happy to be corrected) but then your thought as a player is do I make the shot to get 1st place in the British tour standings or layup to make sure I get 12th in this tournament and collect my £250 - it could have a large effect on decision making mid round as you argued well elsewhere (interestingly putting money as the greater objective than the overall tour which would in turn devalue it - who wouldn't go for the safe layup for £250 in that situation if going for it and messing up could take you 4 or 5 places down the tournament field to hardly any payout? Unless of course the overall tour win was the more profitable pot, oh god I don't like where this route is taking me.) . i don't see this as being out of context but sorry if you feel I am misrepresenting you by slightly changing the scenario.

*edited to break the loooooong sentence up slightly*
*edited again as i meant £250 not £25.*
*another edit in italics as I was on an editing roll*
*Edit - one last (possibly) edit - that is a genuine sorry, not sarcastic - it sounded sarcastic to me when I read it back and it wasn't supposed to - the written words a dangerous thing....*
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by seamus » Mon May 19, 2014 3:34 pm

Phil Wood wrote:i think you refer to your earlier question you asked regarding 1 day events counting as BDGA tour events - i dont think that would work. Players will travel for a weekend of golf but not for a one day competition. In my eyes it would comprimise the validity of the tour, even if they are attributed "half points"
Yes that was it, If a TD is willing to pay the Pdga a fee to sanction an event (C-Tier, B-Tier etc.) then why wouldn't the Bdga run its own 1 day 2 round tournament scheme and get in on these fees even if it was not a Bdga "Major" 54 hole event.
If there is no market for half points then there is no reason to do so, Cheers.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Jester » Mon May 19, 2014 3:50 pm

seamus wrote:
Phil Wood wrote:i think you refer to your earlier question you asked regarding 1 day events counting as BDGA tour events - i dont think that would work. Players will travel for a weekend of golf but not for a one day competition. In my eyes it would comprimise the validity of the tour, even if they are attributed "half points"
Yes that was it, If a TD is willing to pay the Pdga a fee to sanction an event (C-Tier, B-Tier etc.) then why wouldn't the Bdga run its own 1 day 2 round tournament scheme and get in on these fees even if it was not a Bdga "Major" 54 hole event.
If there is no market for half points then there is no reason to do so, Cheers.
A bit of relevant history, 15 years ago the UK Tour was two-tier: 'A' events were worth 50 points for a win and 'B' events 35. Points-per-place were calculated down to 1 point for last place as they are today. Something like your best 3 As and best 2 Bs counted at the end of the year. B events tended to object courses with A meaning all-basket, but this wasn't a strictly adhered to rule e.g. Whitcombe and QP both hosted A and B events in the same season.

I think one of the best things the UK Tour did was abolish the whole A/B thing structure and simplify to a single points system for all Tour events. I fully support local/region Tours and one day events, but I think these should stay separate from the 2-day National Tour events.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Jester » Mon May 19, 2014 4:13 pm

rhatton1 wrote:
Jester wrote:
rhatton1 wrote:(Jester has argued about how playing with overseas players instead of against your peer group in the past can have a very different effect on shot selection, making a reflection of your final standing worhtless in terms of an overall tour ranking)
You’re right, Rich, I did say that, but I’m not sure why you’ve chosen to take it completely out of context. I simply proposed in a very different discussion that any player (overseas or otherwise) taking part in a tournament affects the outcome and therefore should be included in Tour point calculations. Nothing to do with prize money or pro purse.
Because it was the best argument I could think of against the obvious counter argument to my comment - that you could still have a rank for UK players whether Europeans were there or not - and you had already argued it better than i could elsewhere. Their attendance effects the British players result - yes you could still rank 1 - 10 British players and award points differently from our current system (if yo had 20 -30 European players in attendance powerstats would be pretty worthless I would have thought - but I'm not a statistician so happy to be corrected) but then your thought as a player is do I make the shot to get 1st place in the British tour standings or layup to make sure I get 12th in this tournament and collect my £250 - it could have a large effect on decision making mid round as you argued well elsewhere (interestingly putting money as the greater objective than the overall tour which would in turn devalue it - who wouldn't go for the safe layup for £250 in that situation if going for it and messing up could take you 4 or 5 places down the tournament field to hardly any payout? Unless of course the overall tour win was the more profitable pot, oh god I don't like where this route is taking me.) . i don't see this as being out of context but sorry if you feel I am misrepresenting you by slightly changing the scenario.

*edited to break the loooooong sentence up slightly*
*edited again as i meant £250 not £25.*
*another edit in italics as I was on an editing roll*
*Edit - one last (possibly) edit - that is a genuine sorry, not sarcastic - it sounded sarcastic to me when I read it back and it wasn't supposed to - the written words a dangerous thing....*
Thanks for clarifying you points, Rich. Sorry if I misunderstood.

You mention the scenario of UK Tour events potentially becoming filled with Euro Pros looking for the payout? What a brilliant problem to have! I would love it if our Tour events were so popular that they had significant interest from overseas players. It would cause everyone in the UK to raise their game. In any industry disruptors challenge the status quo and those that don’t adapt and improve get left behind. Sure it would mean we’d have to reappraise the Tour scoring system as it was never designed to cope with such a scenario, but that’s just Powerstats evolving based on the needs of the Tour as it last did 15 years ago.

DG events in the UK so popular that Euro Pros would rather come over here than play on their own Tour? The PR value in that to the BDGA would be huge. The public’s attitude towards the sport would be changed for the better, which would lead to increased understanding and acceptance, leading to an increase in the demand for facilities to play at leading to more courses in the ground. Do you see where I’m going with this?
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Mon May 19, 2014 4:22 pm

What i was postulating was an absurd figure to make a point. I would suggest a completely different response of alienating your growth market who couldn't get into the event as it was reserved for 970 upwards rated players (British based amateur players) would occur in this scenario but hey ho who knows in the what ifs game :D
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Jester » Mon May 19, 2014 4:32 pm

rhatton1 wrote:What i was postulating was an absurd figure to make a point. I would suggest a completely different response of alienating your growth market who couldn't get into the event as it was reserved for 970 upwards rated players (British based amateur players) would occur in this scenario but hey ho who knows in the what ifs game :D
Ok, to keep the postulating going, what if all the 1000 rated players keeping the poor sub 970s (such as myself) out of UK Tour events were actually UK players rather than travelling overseas players? How would that change your opinion?
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Mon May 19, 2014 8:45 pm

See page 1 of thread :)
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