A Healthy Debate

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seamus
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by seamus » Thu May 15, 2014 12:48 pm

rhatton1 wrote:Seamus - what are the ability levels of the players playing in the leagues where cash was won? How many people were in attendance at them and how much would be won? Were these handicapped events? Did one "pro" not just come along each week and take other peoples money?
There is a very different culture here in regards to cash payouts at disc golf events, It felt strange to charge someone for league and not payout, it still does, just something I was used too. The ability levels of the people in leagues and tournaments in the U.S. are just like us, somewhere in the middle the only difference is there is a larger pool of players. The most popular leagues played random draw best disc doubles, sometimes we played a scramble but mostly it was doubles with random groupings as well which has a nice social aspect. Yes most of the time "pro" players won some money, thats what what "pro" players do. Every dog has his day and when I played well it was very satisfying to mix it up with the best disc golfers in the area AND fill the car with petrol with your winnings on the way home. Leagues usually cost $5-$8 and they paid out flat and deep because that is social and in the spirit of the game, if a league td got too greedy then there was always another league to attend. Leagues included 1000 rated players and newbies that would show up with one disc, there was room for everyone.

I think if tournaments paid out without raising entry fees everyone would eventually become accustomed to it fairly quick, especially if you are the one being handed the money :)
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by bruce » Thu May 15, 2014 1:35 pm

So much wrong, so little time... ;)

I'll take it that the 'usual suspects' are Del, Dan, Chris, Jester, Matt, James & me. 50% payout at tour events this year (rounding up for odd numbers & including ties) would also have included the following:
Jonny Morris, Tweedy, Seonaidh, Hamish, Pete Dawson, Si Luard, Ivan (3 times!), Sam, Conor Davies, Mark Davis, 4 visiting Norwegians & 1 visiting Fin

That's 22 of the 33 players who've played Open this year, hardly exclusivity. I fail to see why a model that seems to work all over the world would suddenly cause resentment here.
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rhatton1
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Thu May 15, 2014 2:49 pm

Come on Bruce you know that's not what I meant, of those in the 50% the majority get the stake back big whoop ( £8 - 10 ). the only ones CONSISTENTLY (I'm not saying others don't pop up) ending up in the top 5 (the only place the money is really winning - above what you have paid to enter the tournie) are pretty much those you mention in the top 7. That's by the by anyway.

I am not arguing against paying out entrance fees as long as those entrance fees aren't increased to cover this. I'm all for it, it makes more sense than plastic or other prizes.

I am arguing against the point of getting outside sponsorship specifically to increase prize funds - it's poor value for money for sponsors (how do they gain from this unless I am missing something fundamental?) and I honestly doubt it stands as any more incentive for players to improve. If you are encouraging more outside sponsorship then concentrate on giving your sponsors value for money (as i mentioned above i can't see how paying into a pro purse is value for money for the sponsor, please tell me otherwise - they are getting no media exposure, a very limited player base for 2 days, little traffic to a website for a couple of months before, what else? Stick their name on a new basket they've funded for a year and everyone that plays the course sees them for a year -VFM) . If you are going to force TD's into the extra work and pressure involved in finding outside money then put it into future development that can be tied to the sponsors name. It's much better value for money for everyone.

Do you think that if you expect the TD to get outside sponsorship it would not be, at this stage of the sport in the country, better spent in development?

As another fundamental point do you honestly think there is anyone in this country good enough to warrant an outside the sport sponsors payment? Our best UK based player would be beaten by 15 - 18 clear shots at the end of a tournament by the top American on courses that play to a par of around 57, yet it's expected that they should effectively be paid to turn up by sponsors when they will turn up to the tournament anyway? Seems strange. I just can't see who benefits from this and why TD's would want to put the extra work and risk in for?

Seamus - fair enough - I understand it in random draw doubles, every one has a chance, and each week you get another chance to draw Del. it makes sense, there is competitiveness there and over the course of the season a level playing field for all.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by bruce » Thu May 15, 2014 4:01 pm

rhatton1 wrote:Come on Bruce you know that's not what I meant, of those in the 50% the majority get the stake back big whoop ( £8 - 10 ). the only ones CONSISTENTLY (I'm not saying others don't pop up) ending up in the top 5 (the only place the money is really winning - above what you have paid to enter the tournie) are pretty much those you mention in the top 7. That's by the by anyway.
That's specifically why you need the sponsorship. With £500 added cash at Chilly Chuck plus the entry fee money, it would have paid like this:
£180
£120
£90
£70
£60
£45
£40
£35
£30
£25
£25
That seems like a pretty decent reward to me.
I am arguing against the point of getting outside sponsorship specifically to increase prize funds - it's poor value for money for sponsors (how do they gain from this unless I am missing something fundamental?)
It's up to us to make it worthwhile, and approach the right sponsor. Off the top of my head you make a deal with a local pub that you'll use their venue for the players party/dinner. Or do what Phil did and get the local brewer to donate a couple of barrels of beer which you sell to raise the money. Do you think that the average American event has anything more to offer a sponsor than we do ?
Do you think that if you expect the TD to get outside sponsorship it would not be, at this stage of the sport in the country, better spent in development?
Honestly, no. Cash is not the primary factor in development/growth. It's space and motivated individuals. We started a development fund. We've spent the grand total of £100 in 18 months... As evidenced by every recent course there are funding sources available that the BDGA is not going to be able to match until we're at least 10 times bigger.
As another fundamental point do you honestly think there is anyone in this country good enough to warrant an outside the sport sponsors payment? Our best UK based player would be beaten by 15 - 18 clear shots at the end of a tournament by the top American on courses that play to a par of around 57, yet it's expected that they should effectively be paid to turn up by sponsors when they will turn up to the tournament anyway?
So what? You turn up, play well enough, you win whatever the prize is. How is it any different anywhere in the world? The 'top American' isn't playing every event in America!
I just picked 2 C-Tiers and 1 B-Tier at complete random from the PDGA events page:
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/17302 (C)
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/17523 (C)
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/16909 (B)

You can't tell me those look much different to a BDGA Tour event, other than the payout!
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Jester » Thu May 15, 2014 4:15 pm

Interesting debate this. A few thoughts the comments thus far it sparked off in my head:

Looking around the UK today there are countless examples of sport being played at levels far below ‘world class’, but that doesn’t stop local sponsors getting involved e.g car park and pitch side advertising boards at a rugby clubs, football grounds, sports centres etc. It’s clear that the level of player quality has little to nothing to do with if a sponsor wishes to get involved. What the business owner cares about is getting something back for their investment.

Which leads to…

What does a sponsor want back from their investment, and in what time scale? We often seem to presume that without an immediate, measurable increase in their sales no sponsor would be interested in putting cash into DG. But some local businesses like to support local clubs simply as it’s good PR for them in the local community. Sponsorship doesn’t work well at one-off events. It needs to be thought of as an annually renewed relationship. Sponsors should be given year-long exposure and have title billing on tournament weekend. I’m sure the number of eyeballs that would add up to would look quite attractive to many local businesses.

Which then leads on to…

What effect does a minority sport being sponsored have on the way it is perceived by Joe Public? Being avid golfers ourselves, it’s sometimes difficult to step out of our world and imagine what our sport looks like to those who’ve never heard of it. I would argue that to the public, sponsorship and prize money add legitimacy to what they could otherwise consider a pastime only suited to enthusiastic eccentrics. It’s also why it’s important for things like course par should be in line with what the public’s understanding of par in ball golf is. It all helps add legitimacy and support any arguments the sport should be taken seriously.

I don’t disagree for a moment that buying baskets and installing more courses is a good way to spend money, it increases the number of opportunities people have to play. What this doesn’t do however is help make a step-change in public perception that our ‘sport’ is nothing more than a bit of fun for people who never really grew out of playing with Frisbees. From all the various grants and lottery money available, it doesn’t appear at present that there is necessarily a lack of funds to finance new courses. Why not then if there is sponsorship cash available use it to promote an event as having a cash prize? It would increase the validity with which the event is viewed by the public, which would in turn add value to any argument to installing a new course. A positive spiral as far as I can see.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Thu May 15, 2014 9:46 pm

bruce wrote:
rhatton1 wrote:Come on Bruce you know that's not what I meant, of those in the 50% the majority get the stake back big whoop ( £8 - 10 ). the only ones CONSISTENTLY (I'm not saying others don't pop up) ending up in the top 5 (the only place the money is really winning - above what you have paid to enter the tournie) are pretty much those you mention in the top 7. That's by the by anyway.
That's specifically why you need the sponsorship. With £500 added cash at Chilly Chuck plus the entry fee money, it would have paid like this:
£180
£120
£90
£70
£60
£45
£40
£35
£30
£25
£25
That seems like a pretty decent reward to me.
I am arguing against the point of getting outside sponsorship specifically to increase prize funds - it's poor value for money for sponsors (how do they gain from this unless I am missing something fundamental?)
It's up to us to make it worthwhile, and approach the right sponsor. Off the top of my head you make a deal with a local pub that you'll use their venue for the players party/dinner. Or do what Phil did and get the local brewer to donate a couple of barrels of beer which you sell to raise the money. Do you think that the average American event has anything more to offer a sponsor than we do ?
Do you think that if you expect the TD to get outside sponsorship it would not be, at this stage of the sport in the country, better spent in development?
Honestly, no. Cash is not the primary factor in development/growth. It's space and motivated individuals. We started a development fund. We've spent the grand total of £100 in 18 months... As evidenced by every recent course there are funding sources available that the BDGA is not going to be able to match until we're at least 10 times bigger.
As another fundamental point do you honestly think there is anyone in this country good enough to warrant an outside the sport sponsors payment? Our best UK based player would be beaten by 15 - 18 clear shots at the end of a tournament by the top American on courses that play to a par of around 57, yet it's expected that they should effectively be paid to turn up by sponsors when they will turn up to the tournament anyway?
So what? You turn up, play well enough, you win whatever the prize is. How is it any different anywhere in the world? The 'top American' isn't playing every event in America!
I just picked 2 C-Tiers and 1 B-Tier at complete random from the PDGA events page:
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/17302 (C)
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/17523 (C)
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/16909 (B)

You can't tell me those look much different to a BDGA Tour event, other than the payout!
A reward for turning up to do what you would do anyway - a reward that a TD has to work hard to get and commit to getting before he even knows one player will turn up? It just pushes a lot more pressure onto the already undervalued TD , it would certainly make me think twice about wanting to host one of these scale of events.

The american disc golf scene and through it individual events has nothing more to offer than ours apart from the backing of a multi million dollar disc industry, over 1 million casual players to advertise to, local media attention, and general public consciousness of the sport (comparatively). Aside from that though there's not a lot else.

You're changing your argument from conversations we have had in the past about roadblocks to development just to win an argument on the forum? We've both discussed the importance of funding which is THE most important part of the trifecta of what is needed to get courses in the ground the others being space and motivated people, don't suddenly relegate it to make a point.

We've found funding for Bedworth but part of that funding involves finding 11% of it as a club this is where the development fund could/has really come in useful. I imagine many other funding schemes will be similar (certainly lots of the ones I have looked into are) Money is incredibly important in the development of the game, a motivated individual without it is just a motivated individual. If we have the opportunity to find extra revenue through tournaments it seems a massive waste to take it out of the game by putting it into individuals pockets instead of reinvesting into the growth of the sport.

How many people are aware of the development fund? Outside of this forum and word of mouth I'm not sure I've heard/read any mention of it at all. The majority of players don't even look at this forum, TBH i wouldn't know where to look to find more info, if they haven't asked the right person the right question about the fund then they will know nothing about it - has anyone approached each of the newer clubs and said - hey guys there is a fund here you can use as part of your bid for a course? Are there any guidelines as to how it can be used? Is it advertised for members use on the front page of the website or in the monthly newsletter? Saying you have only paid out £100 in 18 months sounds less like a failure of the idea than the implementation of the idea and is certainly not evidence that funding is not helpful from a central body.

I have made a suggestion with the development fund that it goes towards new courses who then pay the "loan" back through holding events at the course they have part funded with the BDGA's money, paying a levy per head on each player, in turn leading to further funds available for more courses. The more courses in the ground the more players exposed to the sport, the more events likely to be held with each one paying back into the BDGA coffers then funding further courses - that's a far more positive and measurable spiral than the possibility of more people getting involved because they think the sport is legitimatized by a prize fund

£500 from five tournaments a year gives you just about enough money for baskets for a 9 hole course. There isn't a council in the country that would turn their nose up at free investment in the current economic climate (you should have seen the council guys faces when I told them that we would lose the SITA funding because of the delays from them last week) so money gets rid of space being a problem. Alternatively £500 from 5 tournaments a year could mean a number of players went home from a tournament with a bit of money never to be seen by the sport again - I can't believe I am alone in thinking one is better for the sport than the other.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Thu May 15, 2014 10:22 pm

Jester wrote: What this doesn’t do however is help make a step-change in public perception that our ‘sport’ is nothing more than a bit of fun for people who never really grew out of playing with Frisbees..
The first time anyone sees a half decent player launch a drive 100 meters or more there is an immediate change in the viewers perception. The more courses in the ground the more likely this is to be seen, the more people that say "i wish I could do that" Not "I wish I could make money doing that"

Does a lack of prize money at ultimate tournaments hold back public perception of the sport? It seems to be growing pretty quickly despite this? People play because it is fun. Does a kid kick a football in the park because he dreams of making money from it or does he kick a ball because he dreams of playing for his country one day?

Money is integral in getting courses in the ground - it is totally unnecessary in filling tournament fields - the natural urge to compete does this by itself.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by seamus » Fri May 16, 2014 7:00 am

rhatton1 wrote:Money is integral in getting courses in the ground - it is totally unnecessary in filling tournament fields - the natural urge to compete does this by itself.
That's a naive statement, The East Lothian Tourism Board will be assisting our efforts to grow The Battle next year due to our Pro Purse and its effectiveness in drawing players from a variety of areas with no marketing or advertising budget. Hosting an event with an increasing pro purse or larger amateur prizes is a natural evolution for most events that want to continue to expand.

Other than that I totally agree with what you are saying. There are many uses for a disc golf tournament, raising funds for course development, funds for charity, as a business, just for fun, player development and as a source of income for traveling players the applications of a disc golf course are practically endless. That decision is entirely up to the person in charge.

I can only hope that the new format that Phil and company are proposing enable us both to develop the sport through the Bdga because I doubt our roads to success will merge anytime soon. Best of luck at Bedworth.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Fri May 16, 2014 8:32 am

seamus wrote:
That's a naive statement, The East Lothian Tourism Board will be assisting our efforts to grow The Battle next year due to our Pro Purse and its effectiveness in drawing players from a variety of areas with no marketing or advertising budget. Hosting an event with an increasing pro purse or larger amateur prizes is a natural evolution for most events that want to continue to expand.
Naive or not I would say the pretty much full fields (60+) at QP and Croydon events over the last couple of years with equalish numbers in the divisions would back the statement up. You are in a slightly different geographical position though from us where it is not so easy for the majority to travel to and there is definitely an argument that to fill your event a pro purse will have an effect that is not necessary to fill an event at Croydon or QP. As you say the tourism board will be helping you i wonder how many of those you expect at the event will be from overseas rather than from the UK? From the tournaments point of view if it is not filling itself due to a lack of local player base, overseas players make a lot of sense and will be attracted by the pro purse

Please understand I am not against what you personally are doing at all, I am all for it - you as the TD and developer of the course have seen the best way to grow your event and your course and you are investing in this. What's not to love? You've worked out a plan and with the energy you're putting into it I'm sure it will work - you though Seamus are not the norm in terms of yourself (you're a rare, highly motivated resource with tons of experience) and the position you are in. I do feel that for the BDGA to take a path that forces other courses to do similar to host a national tour event is wasting peoples time and energy and the ever needed money on a pointless venture.

Why do i think that? When I said trifecta above I should have said whatever the equivalent of 4 pronged is. The other incredibly important element is time. for me the most elusive of the four, I've got the motivation, access to funding and space to install (oh god have I got spaces to install and from the sound of the last meeting I had different councils wanting to do it) - what I don't have is time to put all together. Asking a TD to waste precious time on filling a pro purse for a tournament that would fill up without one is just nonsensical when that time and energy could be far better spent elsewhere, raising the sponsorship to increase the standards of the tournament equipment and course for one, sponsorship that could then be in place all year round as Jester says above. This does not apply to Dunbar as you are in a unique situation and as the TD you WANT to take it in that direction you aren't being forced to.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by bruce » Fri May 16, 2014 10:03 am

I'm wary of this, but you gotta keep trying I guess: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/ ... t-mcraney/
rhatton1 wrote:A reward for turning up to do what you would do anyway - a reward that a TD has to work hard to get and commit to getting before he even knows one player will turn up? It just pushes a lot more pressure onto the already undervalued TD , it would certainly make me think twice about wanting to host one of these scale of events.
Again, so what? Just because people turned up when we played tournaments to trees instead of baskets wasn't a reason not to change! You've already stated that when we have a field of 1000 rated players then we should do payouts but a journey is not a teleportation from A to B, it's a series of steps. I believe we are close, if not already there, to taking the first of those steps.

As an actual TD, I don't feel undervalued. I put on a good event (I hope) and I'm always looking at ways to make it better. I'm willing to make the effort to look at sponsorship. If you're not, then maybe running future BDGA Tour events isn't for you. That's okay! They're not for about 95% of our membership!
The american disc golf scene and through it individual events has nothing more to offer than ours apart from the backing of a multi million dollar disc industry, over 1 million casual players to advertise to, local media attention, and general public consciousness of the sport (comparatively). Aside from that though there's not a lot else.
Sorry, but this is absolute garbage.
multi million dollar disc industry - that we have access to
over 1 million casual players to advertise to - that's a worldwide figure, and how many of those are aware of a single event? No more than are aware of our events
local media attention - that we can also get (many examples, Croydon most recently)
general public consciousness of the sport - that offers what to a specific local sponsor?
You're changing your argument from conversations we have had in the past about roadblocks to development just to win an argument on the forum? We've both discussed the importance of funding which is THE most important part of the trifecta of what is needed to get courses in the ground the others being space and motivated people, don't suddenly relegate it to make a point.
No I'm not. I'm confident that I have never, outside of a pipe dream discussion, suggested that the BDGA could for one minute generate the level of funding required for course development. Money is the least important point that the BDGA has influence over. Name one possible course that didn't happen because of funding.

Sure, if some benevolent lottery winner donated us a million pounds, we'd be on the phone to every council in the country offering to put courses in (my phone is always on BTW!)
We've found funding for Bedworth but part of that funding involves finding 11% of it as a club this is where the development fund could/has really come in useful. I imagine many other funding schemes will be similar (certainly lots of the ones I have looked into are) Money is incredibly important in the development of the game, a motivated individual without it is just a motivated individual. If we have the opportunity to find extra revenue through tournaments it seems a massive waste to take it out of the game by putting it into individuals pockets instead of reinvesting into the growth of the sport.
And would you have managed it without our funds? Yes, you would. See above. And below.
How many people are aware of the development fund? Outside of this forum and word of mouth I'm not sure I've heard/read any mention of it at all. The majority of players don't even look at this forum, TBH i wouldn't know where to look to find more info, if they haven't asked the right person the right question about the fund then they will know nothing about it - has anyone approached each of the newer clubs and said - hey guys there is a fund here you can use as part of your bid for a course? Are there any guidelines as to how it can be used? Is it advertised for members use on the front page of the website or in the monthly newsletter? Saying you have only paid out £100 in 18 months sounds less like a failure of the idea than the implementation of the idea and is certainly not evidence that funding is not helpful from a central body. I have made a suggestion with the development fund that it goes towards new courses who then pay the "loan" back through holding events at the course they have part funded with the BDGA's money, paying a levy per head on each player, in turn leading to further funds available for more courses. The more courses in the ground the more players exposed to the sport, the more events likely to be held with each one paying back into the BDGA coffers then funding further courses - that's a far more positive and measurable spiral than the possibility of more people getting involved because they think the sport is legitimatized by a prize fund
I don't disagree that we can better use the money we have. That's kind of a separate discussion though, and I don't think it relates to prize money.
£500 from five tournaments a year gives you just about enough money for baskets for a 9 hole course. There isn't a council in the country that would turn their nose up at free investment in the current economic climate (you should have seen the council guys faces when I told them that we would lose the SITA funding because of the delays from them last week) so money gets rid of space being a problem. Alternatively £500 from 5 tournaments a year could mean a number of players went home from a tournament with a bit of money never to be seen by the sport again - I can't believe I am alone in thinking one is better for the sport than the other.
Ooooh, one 9 hole course a year. I was obviously missing the grand significance on the sport we could have! Really? You think that a few grand is that difficult for a council to find out of a budget that they already have assigned for recreation and community projects? Money doesn't get rid of space being a problem, you have to have space and a motivated individual already worked out before money is even mentioned. As before, name one opportunity lost because of money! We're ~100 people, and 10-20 events a year. The money we can generate is absolute small fry. Saying giving it to the players is 'never to be seen by the sport again' is rubbish, the players are the sport, way more so than saving some council a few hundred quid!

I'm going to try to sum up your arguments:
1) Players don't deserve/need the money
2) It's too hard to raise it
3) If we can raise it, it's better used elsewhere

And to sum up my response:
1) If it's okay for 1000 rated players, why isn't it for us?
2) We haven't tried, how do you know?
3) We can't hold a candle to other budget sources

If you made one good point in the whole thing (by accident :P ) it's that we don't do a good enough job of promoting ourselves. When we run a big event like the British Open we can get media coverage, the Croydon Advertiser photographer turned up without even an invite! Contacting local media is a job every TD can do, and that in turn enhances the value of sponsorship.

Phil's vision is about moving the tour onto the next level, just as Jester did many years ago by mandating all baskets and generally driving up course standards. When we look at the British Open and see it as a stand out event, there's something a bit wrong I think. We should be striving to raise our games as TDs to elevate BDGA tour events to being flagship events, ones that do more than simply provide a fun weekend for players but do an active job of promoting the sport in the local community. As Jester points out there is no panacea for this, it's a cumulative effect. Sponsorship, sensible pars, engaging the media, advertising etc are all small steps we can take
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Fri May 16, 2014 10:22 am

bruce wrote:I'm wary of this, but you gotta keep trying I guess: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/ ... t-mcraney/
Lolz - I was thinking about posting that same article in response to your post last night :D Swings and roundabouts. I love your systemic attempt to breakdown my argument throughout the posts - all you need now is a doctor to come in and back up your claims and then you'll have used every tool in the propaganda playbook!

I've got bored of reading think the kids say tl:dr or something - I'll see you in an hour and we can bang our heads together at Washbourne instead ;0)

EDIT Arghh and then i stupidly read a bit more and got annoyed. Stop misquoting me please!!! I'm happy to look for external funding for tournaments - just not for it to pay people to come and play when they would be coming anyway it would be a massive waste of my time and effort - not until those people who are coming to play have any beneficial effect for the sponsors or other players - no one in the UK has any draw for other players let alone spectators - we don't turn up to a tournament because Bruce is going to be there (unless I am sharing a car with you :D ) A full field will turn up to a tournament because a top international player is in attendance and if well advertised potentially a crowd as well (yes I realise we could advertise it to spectators as the top UK players are in attendance so come and watch - but honestly I would feel a fraud to do that when the top English player is probably not even in the top 1000 of world Disc golfers anymore (pulled this figure out of the air, it's not substantiated but I bet it's not far off anymore including loads of players that aren't PDGA registered) and you could play with that top player and have basic lessons with him for free every weeknight in the summer.)

I think I've proved quite categorically that I am all for finding innovative ways to fund and advance the development of disc golf and disc golf tournaments, I just want the efforts to be directed in areas that benefit all rather than the few.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Fri May 16, 2014 10:42 am

bruce wrote:
Phil's vision is about moving the tour onto the next level, just as Jester did many years ago by mandating all baskets and generally driving up course standards. When we look at the British Open and see it as a stand out event, there's something a bit wrong I think. We should be striving to raise our games as TDs to elevate BDGA tour events to being flagship events, ones that do more than simply provide a fun weekend for players but do an active job of promoting the sport in the local community. As Jester points out there is no panacea for this, it's a cumulative effect. Sponsorship, sensible pars, engaging the media, advertising etc are all small steps we can take
I don't disagree and haven't disagreed with any of this - you systematically keep misrepresenting what I am saying - I think I have been clear but maybe not although I realise it suits you to argue against a point that you have made up not one that I am making - see propaganda playbook comment above, but it's not particularly helpful. These are all great and worthwhile things to achieve - none of which require an artificially raised pro purse to do. Unless you honestly think that the only way a sport can have credibility is by people making money from playing it - if so stop messing around with ultimate and come and teach people how to play Disc golf.
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Jester » Fri May 16, 2014 10:44 am

rhatton1 wrote: you systematically keep misrepresenting what I am saying - I think I have been clear but maybe not although I realise it suits you to argue against a point that you have made up not one that I am making
Sorry, Rich, but pot kettle colour check? :roll:
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by Phil Wood » Fri May 16, 2014 10:55 am

bruce wrote:When we run a big event like the British Open we can get media coverage, the Croydon Advertiser photographer turned up without even an invite! Contacting local media is a job every TD can do, and that in turn enhances the value of sponsorship.
errmm 'scuse me, i sent in the region of a dozen media releases to all major media centres (bbc, itv, skysports news etc) as well as local press, about 3 weeks before the BO we had an article advertising it the by arrangement the photgrapher turned up... if a little later than expected....and i had thought they had forgotten....

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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by bruce » Fri May 16, 2014 11:04 am

Phil Wood wrote:
bruce wrote:When we run a big event like the British Open we can get media coverage, the Croydon Advertiser photographer turned up without even an invite! Contacting local media is a job every TD can do, and that in turn enhances the value of sponsorship.
errmm 'scuse me, i sent in the region of a dozen media releases to all major media centres (bbc, itv, skysports news etc) as well as local press, about 3 weeks before the BO we had an article advertising it the by arrangement the photgrapher turned up... if a little later than expected....and i had thought they had forgotten....
Apologies, I obviously misunderstood what Rich said on the day
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Fri May 16, 2014 11:06 am

bruce wrote:
Ooooh, one 9 hole course a year. I was obviously missing the grand significance on the sport we could have! Really? You think that a few grand is that difficult for a council to find out of a budget that they already have assigned for recreation and community projects? Money doesn't get rid of space being a problem, you have to have space and a motivated individual already worked out before money is even mentioned. As before, name one opportunity lost because of money! We're ~100 people, and 10-20 events a year. The money we can generate is absolute small fry. Saying giving it to the players is 'never to be seen by the sport again' is rubbish, the players are the sport, way more so than saving some council a few hundred quid!

I'm going to try to sum up your arguments:
1) Players don't deserve/need the money
2) It's too hard to raise it
3) If we can raise it, it's better used elsewhere

And to sum up my response:
1) If it's okay for 1000 rated players, why isn't it for us?
2) We haven't tried, how do you know?
3) We can't hold a candle to other budget sources
good god. Stop taking in isolation.

What have I been saying repeatedly for the last year about cumulative effects and the positive feedback from each, even in this thread?

One 9 hole course goes in, new players start to play it tournaments are held there, tournaments generate cash back to the BDGA development fund, The BDGA fund grows exponentially with each new development. More money becomes available.

Consider next year we have 10 tour events - averaging 50 players (made up figure for reference only) 500 players each add £2 on a players fees (player won't notice the difference and ideally matched by sponsorship paid to development rather than pro purse) That's £1000 a year from them + hopefully matched sponsorship £2000 to BDGA coffers.

15 different one day events around the country each averaging 20 players each pays £1 from player fees into development fund + normal taxes £300 - unlikely to get sponsorship for these but great if you can.
So next year we could have £2300 paid into a development fund - that is two Sita/Biffa/Veolia whatever 18 hole course 11% contributions made right there - possibly even three if you get a lot of volunteer labour and don't start of with tee pads. (cost for 54 baskets + tee posts to match around £21600 at bargain bucket installation costs)

In the next year I expect to be needing some of these funds.

in 5 years, each one of these courses has grown a player base and run their own tournaments yearly, each year the BDGA fund increases so now money going into the development fund is probably more like £4000 a year - that's 5 courses going in this year and 4 the year before and 4 the year before that etc. etc.

In 5 years if used properly and advertised properly that BDGA fund could have doubled our (proper not 6 hole private land) courses in the ground, doubled the BDGA player numbers adding extra revenue to the BDGA coffers, hugely increased turnout at tournaments, more advertising power to woo sponsors. etc. etc. (i'm sure you will look for fault in my figures, I have just made these up whilst on a conference call where I should be paying attention, they are there to give the gist)

Councils do not want to find the budget, if you go to them with the budget even then they still throw all sorts of pitfalls in your way (expect them from the legal team) - but crucially they are like greedy little goblins willing to tear your arm off as Mr sports development man is able to boast loudly and proudly how he has gained x amount of investment in his park to further sport in the local community at no cost whatsoever, doesn't he look good

We have an amazing opportunity right now standing on the crest of the wave with I believe enough in the development fund to fund at least the 11% contributions of 2 18 hole courses and it seems like you are more interested in worrying about the pennies a few individuals can make from playing something they love rather than focusing on exploding the sport to the level it should and will be.

Once we are there and tournaments are filling out and courses are burgeoning outwards from the hubs I've talked about previously then you're in a position to start making a few quid from playing a tournament. I'm done. see you in 20 minutes
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Fri May 16, 2014 11:12 am

rhatton1 wrote:
Councils do not want to find the budget, if you go to them with the budget even then they still throw all sorts of pitfalls in your way (expect them from the legal team) - but crucially they are like greedy little goblins willing to tear your arm off as Mr sports development man is able to boast loudly and proudly how he has gained x amount of investment in his park to further sport in the local community at no cost whatsoever, doesn't he look good
On this note I am struggling to persuade them to mow a strip of land 20 meters wide and 80 meters long 3 times a year at the same time the rest of the field is mowed - if you think councils are readily available with their cash at the moment as their budgets are being squeezed you are sorely mistaken - time and again in this process I have been reminded by them that it's all good as long as it doesn't cost us anything.

God i've got to do some work - everyone stop poking me with a stick as amusing as the reaction may be
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by bruce » Fri May 16, 2014 11:16 am

rhatton1 wrote:I am arguing against the point of getting outside sponsorship specifically to increase prize funds - it's poor value for money for sponsors (how do they gain from this unless I am missing something fundamental?) and I honestly doubt it stands as any more incentive for players to improve. If you are encouraging more outside sponsorship then concentrate on giving your sponsors value for money (as i mentioned above i can't see how paying into a pro purse is value for money for the sponsor, please tell me otherwise - they are getting no media exposure, a very limited player base for 2 days, little traffic to a website for a couple of months before, what else? Stick their name on a new basket they've funded for a year and everyone that plays the course sees them for a year -VFM) . If you are going to force TD's into the extra work and pressure involved in finding outside money then put it into future development that can be tied to the sponsors name. It's much better value for money for everyone. (2)

Do you think that if you expect the TD to get outside sponsorship it would not be, at this stage of the sport in the country, better spent in development? (3)

As another fundamental point do you honestly think there is anyone in this country good enough to warrant an outside the sport sponsors payment? Our best UK based player would be beaten by 15 - 18 clear shots at the end of a tournament by the top American on courses that play to a par of around 57, yet it's expected that they should effectively be paid to turn up by sponsors when they will turn up to the tournament anyway? Seems strange. I just can't see who benefits from this and why TD's would want to put the extra work and risk in for? (1)
Explain how my 3 point summary (numbers added by me) misrepresents this?
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by rhatton1 » Fri May 16, 2014 11:28 am

really no as we will just go backwards and forwards on it all day. Just in case it comes up at an AGM and I am not there please count me as a no vote to a TD having to raise outside sponsorship for a pro purse (not if you want to designate that it is used elsewhere) in order to run a top tier BDGA event (not euro tour event where obviously we have no choice)
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Re: A Healthy Debate

Post by bruce » Fri May 16, 2014 12:48 pm

We agreed I'm right ;)


(how's that for misrepresenting your position?)
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