Sidearm Advice?

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ManicMinerUK
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Sidearm Advice?

Post by ManicMinerUK » Mon May 10, 2010 2:19 pm

Hi all,

A couple of weeks back I played a really crappy round at QP. Naturally I did the mature and sensible thing of going somewhere quiet and hurling every disc in my bag as hard as I could towards the nearest basket as a "healthy" outlet for my frustration with myself and my stupid disobedient discs :)

Anyway, I was throwing the discs sidearm and it as I threw my final driver that my jaw hit the floor... I was throwing off the Am tee on Hole 1 at the short basket, and I very nearly hit a lazer line ace through the gap in the trees! My normal backhand on that hole from that tee usually leaves me looking at a 15-20 metre upshot, but this one disc had actually flown past the hole, chains high!

As a result of this experience I have started to experiment with throwing sidearm drives off tees (assuming there is some kind of sidearm line that is worth throwing). It's working out okay for me and I'm enjoying seeing improvement again after nearly 3 months of working on my backhand and seeing very little gains for my effort.

Anyway, that's just the background. I have twoquestions for the experts here, if anyone has much experience with sidearm driving for distance?

a) What are the key points of a good sidearm? What should I be trying to do to maximise distance/accuracy etc?

b) How do I know my sidearm action is "elbow-safe"? Googling for advice on the technique has brought up a LOT of people talking about damaging their elbows or otherwise wrecking their body, and its left we wondering if I'm just going to ruin my body if I persist with it.

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Post by ChrisOBrien » Mon May 10, 2010 3:32 pm

This will give you a good example of form - one of the best forehanders in the business!

http://www.catchthespirit.co.uk/gallery ... o-the-form

Prescription = Watch this 3 times then go out and throw.

If your elbow breaks, don't blame me. Most of the power comes from the core. Obviously the forehand needs to be strong too. Try using a Powerball to get it in shape!

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LostMeow
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Post by LostMeow » Mon May 10, 2010 3:49 pm

I'd say the motion should be a bit like hitting a hard forehand in squash (if you've ever played squash).

Don't know if that helps or not.

I've been trying to think about letting go at the end of the whipping motion, rather than flicking from around hip-level as I would with an Ultrastar playing ultimate.
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ManicMinerUK
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Post by ManicMinerUK » Mon May 10, 2010 3:56 pm

that video of Ville is very interesting as he throws a forehand pretty unlike any other player I have watched... he's got very little backswing and doesn't look to be using much of anything in his throw, it looks like its all forearm and wrist?

In the slo-mo replays the disc is cocked one frame, and then 20 feet out in front of him the next... that snap is just out of this world!

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Post by rhatton1 » Mon May 10, 2010 3:57 pm

Good video, the stress he puts through his elbow must be immense!

Things to note:

1. He gets a lot of turn through his hips and this all levers round his lead leg. You can see the leg releases each time after the disc has left his hand.

2. Elbow is kept very close into the body until the arm is driven forward by the hip turn.

3. the hand is kept on the same plane throughout, although it's very difficult to see this on most of them as it moves so fast.

4. Quite a few more finesseful sidearmers (i'm pretty sure you do this) tend to follow the disc out towards the target with their arm after release. Piippo rips across the back of it without a full arm extension (probably how he manages not to murder his elbow, it never seems to lock), creating the massive amount of spin on the disc, the disc is already moving incredibly quickly towards the target when his arm moves sideways.

5. Slow in fast out. The arm doesn't move until the body has pretty much gone from turned away to open toward the target, then it charges forwards. This is mainly due to the whip effect created by the body. Exactly the same as backhand - The legs drive the hips, which drive the Torso and then the shoulder, arm and wrist are released. All of this is forced to pivot around a stationary pivot, his lead leg.

The slo mo at 1.01 really shows well how he uses the body and turns his arm into a lever rather than using that much arm in the throw.
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Post by bruce » Tue May 11, 2010 8:22 am

All I know about forehand is that you should keep the palm of your hand facing upwards right through the throw, but you're talking to someone who has about a 50m max confidence range with forehands
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Post by TheGroover » Tue May 11, 2010 11:52 am

Fred Risbee wrote:This will give you a good example of form - one of the best forehanders in the business!

http://www.catchthespirit.co.uk/gallery ... o-the-form

Prescription = Watch this 3 times then go out and throw.

If your elbow breaks, don't blame me. Most of the power comes from the core. Obviously the forehand needs to be strong too. Try using a Powerball to get it in shape!
Pippo rocks - I love the way he barely seems to think about the throw.The last one in the compilation: disc out of bag, and then throws within about 5 seconds. His body language, too, is totally matter of fact. I remember seeing him at Euro 2007 - so relaxed it seemed like he was bored.

If i tried throwing a sidearm like that, my body would break.
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ManicMinerUK
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Post by ManicMinerUK » Tue May 18, 2010 2:32 pm

thanks for the advice so far... It seems like the internet is full of advice on the correct body positions, grip and throwing techniques for backhand throws but there isn't a lot of sidearm advice around, so its all really appreciated.

Currently I am struggling with disc orientation. Not so much hyzer vs anhyzer, but more release angles. I don't have a lot of control over the trajectory that the disc leaves my hand at.

Basically, half the time the disc flies out on a nice flat line and I'm happy. I'd say about one in four shots goes zooming up into the sky and one in four comes out too low and slams into the ground between twenty and a hundred feet in front of the tee pad. The shots that are too high are irritating but tolerable, but the shots that come out too low are seriously annoying and just destroy my scores as I'm basically dropping a shot immediately off the tee.

Crazy as it seems I actually can't figure out what I'm doing to be causing this. I can't find the part of the form where I can control this angle, so I wondered if anyone else could shed some light?

So, sidearm throwers: How do you adjust disc trajectory when you are throwing a sidearm? If you wanted to keep a shot low under branches, or you wanted to get the disc up to give an S shot time to flex, what would you change in your throwing action to achieve this?

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Steve
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Post by Steve » Tue May 18, 2010 2:43 pm

Personally speaking, I launch my sidearms from waist height (never above or below - unless I'm hyzering/anhyzering them). I also always use 2 fingers stacked under the rim (lots of sidearmers use 1 or a fan grip. I find 2 allows me more control of direction and lets me put more into the shot without breaking a digit.

Most of the time I use wraiths for straight shots (70-90 metres). Held down with lots of power on it to flip it straight.

Straight then hard right dropping shots / gentle hyzers / long anhyzers - Boss (60-80 metres)

Sidewinders for a nice gentle turnover or turnover to fade shot (60-70 metres)

I class myself a more than abled sidearmer and learnt from a couple of great sidearmers (Nige and Woody) and would be happy to show you a few things if you're going to Bristol?
Last edited by Steve on Tue May 18, 2010 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LostMeow
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Post by LostMeow » Tue May 18, 2010 2:57 pm

Ooh, a sidearm masterclass! Sign me up!
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Steve
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Post by Steve » Tue May 18, 2010 3:02 pm

:o
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Post by rhatton1 » Tue May 18, 2010 3:15 pm

I'd be interested in that too!!! I've always liked the Shrewsbury form for sidearm shots. I remember being jealous during our round at Burnlaw last year as you kept banging out good sidearm after good sidearm.
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Steve
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Post by Steve » Tue May 18, 2010 3:50 pm

No problem fellas. My sidearm is pretty much the only thing going for my game at the moment :/
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Post by Village » Tue May 18, 2010 4:29 pm

Steve wrote:No problem fellas. My sidearm is pretty much the only thing going for my game at the moment :/
plus your dashing good looks.......
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Post by Jon » Tue May 18, 2010 4:37 pm

...and those wellies!

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Post by ManicMinerUK » Tue May 18, 2010 11:49 pm

sadly I'm not going to Bristol myself but I'm sure Rich and the other QP guys can pass on any and all good advice that comes from your sidearm master class :)

I spent an hour down at the local park tonight working out the kinks and I feel happy that I've sussed out what was causing it... I think I was rolling my wrist to snap the disc away too early and this was turning the disc into the ground before it left my grip.

Whatever the reason the issue seems to have gone away again as I was ripping off some real beauties (by my standards anyway... probably about 75 metres ish), but still on a low line I'd estimate they are travelling about 10 feet off the ground tops which is not ideal but I can see from their flight that I'm actually getting a decent snap on them, as its rock steady in the air and they skip up beautifully when they hit the deck.

I would love to have a better idea of how to give them just a touch more height though, as I reckon there's probably another ten metres or so in them if they got longer to fly.

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Post by West » Wed May 19, 2010 8:23 am

After the 2nd round on sat Steve? I'd be up for seeing some side arm expertise dished out :)
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Nige
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Post by Nige » Wed May 19, 2010 10:22 am

My top tips for some sweet, sweet sidearm action:

1. Get hold of some old school Shaw Brothers kung fu films! Seriously, sidearm is kung fu! 8)
2. Throw from the hip (see 1). Short reach back, bring your elbow in close and extend on release. Keep it simple.
3. Keep it low and level for starters. Lean into it if it's going high.
4. If it flaps and turns over, you're trying too hard - reign in the power and it'll go further and straighter.
5. (Elite-Z) Flash (ah-ahhhh!). Works for my grip - grip's a personal thing, I do a patented two-fingered linear/stack grip with transverse opposing thumb on the first digit... whatever's comfy! Try different discs with different rims, see if a thick or thin one works.
6. Aim left :wink:

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Post by ManicMinerUK » Wed May 19, 2010 1:12 pm

I'm using the split power grip according to the innova site:

http://www.innovadiscs.com/home/daves-t ... -tips.html

I find it keeps the disc much more under control and I get a nice rip off it when my timing is right.

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West
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Post by West » Fri May 21, 2010 9:41 am

West wrote:After the 2nd round on sat Steve? I'd be up for seeing some side arm expertise dished out :)
So I'm thinking a video camera and recording this technique session so it can be hosted somewhere.

Has someone got a video camera and is able to record this session ... if Steve says yes? :)
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