Training methods and ideas thread

Any chat about technique, training methods, requests for advice etc.
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West
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Post by West » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:34 am

I admit, the ob 7 on my 4th hole of the event threw me a little and never really recovered, it was going so well up until that point ;-)

Back to practicing ...

*starts another thread* ... you'll see why
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Post by Jester » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:55 pm

rhatton1 wrote:In fairness though, Jester did follow his never give up advice
Thank you, Rich, nice of ya to say. A bad start used to ruin my tournament play for the entire w/e, but now I try to just suck it up, dig in and play the next shot. It's never over until the last throw, as both Whitcombe and QP have reinforced for me, I just have to sort out my slow start!

I have a confession however, on one very specific occasion I remember consciously ignoring my better judgement, going for a risky shot and paying the price. Sunday morning, Hole 12 Cedar View, a bad drive and approach left me half under the hedge uphill and left of the basket. Rather than laying up for a 4, I chose not to realise the 10y straddle was more likely to get me in trouble than hit the target! I took it on, missed and ended up with a no-need 5. :cry:

Why did I take it on? Stupidity basically! i was trying to protect my '6 under the 3s' start from further damage having just gone 4, 4 on 10 and 11. I was desperate not to drop a shot on 12 but ended up dropping two instead of one because I didn't lay up.

Luckily I got a shot at redemption in the afternoon on 13 again. I drove pin high but 20-25y left, half under the gorse bushes. To have any chance of hitting the green/landing close for a shot putt I would have had to throw a step-out forehand on a sharp angle around the bushes. I was chasing BOF and Johnny Morris and really wanted to give myself and easy putt to take the pressure off, but with my clam head on I was able to see a forehand would just roll away down the hill taking any chance of a 3 with it. Instead I picked a landing point on a flat area near the bottom of the steps chucked a horseshoe backhand on to it. The 7y putt I left myself was longer than I would have liked to leave myself for a 3, but because I had made the decision to play the approach and putt that way I was confident and I got it.

Learnings? Treat every shot as individual and don't think about the rest of my round when considering what shot to play!
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Post by rhatton1 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:06 pm

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Post by West » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:56 pm

rhatton1 wrote:Dave Feldberg push putting clinic.

http://www.svdgc.org/forums/index.php?s ... &#entry232
I watched some of this the other day. From what I saw it was pretty good, although a little slow for somone whos been playing disc golf for a while.

All I do is push putting ... apparently?! :-)
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Post by Steve » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:46 pm

After a nightmare weekend putting, I've decided to change my style. And after watching that vid, I'm confused as hell. How does the disc fly straight if you don't spin it. I tried for about an hour with several hundred floppy pathetic looking putts. :?:
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Post by West » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:56 pm

Steve wrote:After a nightmare weekend putting, I've decided to change my style. And after watching that vid, I'm confused as hell. How does the disc fly straight if you don't spin it. I tried for about an hour with several hundred floppy pathetic looking putts. :?:
For me Steve its about the wrist flick. You don't generate the spin on the disc from the arm movement from left to right (for a RHBH) and kinda float it into the basket. This is what he refers to as the "traditional" method (I think, I watched it a few days ago), in the kinda "pick up a frisbee and throw" putting version.

The push comes from the centre of your body and you push through the disc away from your body with a wrist flick at the end. The push from the body generates flight *power* towards the target, the flick generates the spin to keep the disc flying.

Hope this helps ...
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Post by rhatton1 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:48 pm

if anyone fancies joining me I am going to make the most of the glorious weather and go down and try this out tonight. Have already annoyed everyone in the office by walking around doing it.
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Post by rhatton1 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:55 pm

West wrote:
Steve wrote:After a nightmare weekend putting, I've decided to change my style. And after watching that vid, I'm confused as hell. How does the disc fly straight if you don't spin it. I tried for about an hour with several hundred floppy pathetic looking putts. :?:
For me Steve its about the wrist flick. You don't generate the spin on the disc from the arm movement from left to right (for a RHBH) and kinda float it into the basket. This is what he refers to as the "traditional" method (I think, I watched it a few days ago), in the kinda "pick up a frisbee and throw" putting version.

The push comes from the centre of your body and you push through the disc away from your body with a wrist flick at the end. The push from the body generates flight *power* towards the target, the flick generates the spin to keep the disc flying.

Hope this helps ...
Watch the video again, as far as I can make out there should be NO spin on the disc for this style. As such no wrist flick just a push of the palm generated by the body movement prior. I thought I was doing this on saturday but Bruce was there to point out the disc was still spinning. So far, fail for me.

I don't think you are actually doing this style at the moment Westy as your putts when they miss fly a long way by and it looks like you generate a lot of spin on them. The way Bruce has described learning how to do this push putting to me is to try putting a phone directory (if you can find a paper one - don't throw the laptop!) or a cushion onto a sofa keeping it flat but without spinning it. His top tip is that he would do this with a cushion every time he left the living room - probably much to the annoyance of Carol!
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Post by Steve » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:48 pm

I still don't see how a round thing not spinning can travel any sort of distance without wobbling about. I have tried this for about 2 hours now with 0 success. After watching that vid again and again it looks like most of the people there are spinning the disc too, although dave tells us it shouldn't spin. Very confusing.
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Post by rhatton1 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:06 pm

i'm going to try to discover this myself tonight.


Edit: Just tried this in the office desk chair to desk chair - the backs are almost perfect chain size for those without disccatchers! -

To begin with wobbly crap, then really concentrated on just using my arm as a pendulum and thrusting forward letting my arm swing up and they started to fly a bit better, I have drawn an arrow on the front of each putter and there was no revolution on the disc so no spin imparted, on these ones it felt like it pushed off the plam of the hand, it didn't rip off instead the fingers pushed it forward, what I imagine finger spring is. doesn't feel like I would have much succes with this over 5 meters at the moment but then I can't push onto and balance on one leg yet so the muscle memory isn't really there.
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Post by bruce » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:18 pm

I tried this for the entire 18 holes round QP on Sat and I can definitely say that I get it, but it'll take a whole bunch of practice to incorporate into my game for all putts. I can see it being my go-to putt for <5m quite quickly.

So clearly I'm not an expert, but here are my thoughts so far!

In order to get it to fly cleanly, you need to get a very fast and clean finger-spring; he talks about having your wrist very slightly bent (17.30), so your fingers spring to a straight line with your arm. Also, you need to grip at the back of the disc, not the front (16.55); I believe that's because the ring and little fingers release faster than the index.
If you get these right, the disc won't wobble.

Steve, you say "I still don't see how a round thing not spinning can travel any sort of distance", but you could easily throw a tennis ball on that trajectory and have it go in, so why not a disc? In fact, if you were throwing a tennis ball, would you spin it? I certainly wouldn't.

However, it is a disc that you're throwing, and so it has different aerodynamic characteristics from a ball. In order for it to fly, the critical component is the nose angle, if it's slightly up, it will generate a slight bit of lift, which I assume helps with the range.

My last thought is that the disc may look like it's not flying smoothly (kind of bobbling in the air like no-spin discs do if you know what I mean) but I think the point is that this is still more accurate than when you have a lateral component in the throw, and when you miss it should end up closer to the basket.
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Post by West » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:45 pm

After reassessing my putting and discussing it while going round QP on sat with Bruce and chatting to Rich tonight I've worked out that I do a similar putting action but with a wrist flick to get the spin; so don't push putt, although potentially wouldn't have to change my style to push putt.

I've also come to the conclusion that as my putting is by far the strongest part of my game and *can* get it in from 20ish metres away with my current style I'll concentrate on approaching, driving and mental concentration to improve my game :-)
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Post by rhatton1 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:51 pm

Happy learned how to putt....oh, oh.
By the end of a little session with Westy tonight at QP, first trying this putting style and some approaching then playing a few holes with just the Rhyno, this really started to feel like it was coming together.

I had drawn arrows on my putters whilst playing around at work and this helped me to see if there was any revolution on the discs when I was putting.

They seemed to be turning about half way round during the flight to the basket and no more than this so I would say I was just about there with the pushing part, I'm not sure I could get it to go forward without any turn.

What this style allowed me to do was to confidently use my whole body into the putt without fear of it overshooting by further than a comfortable return. I could really fire everything through at speed which felt much better than the sometimes tentative putts I normally make. My range seemed to max out around 6 meters and I felt like I was forcing it after this, but on playing the few holes I nailed all the putts I went for including one on 14 from a range by the OB fence I would normally drop low on.

Having the disc ever so slightly nose up so you could just see the flight plate as it flew to the basket seemed to take the wobble out and give the disc more range as Bruce says.

certainly the stiff DX rhyno felt a lot better and wobbled a lot less than the soft aviar I have been using to putt with, this is something Feldberg mentions in the video as well.

I have to say this feels like a natural transition for me from the straddle putt I reverted to last year out of fear of missing and going too far past, as with Westy if you are already confident with your putting then I would see no need to change but for me this feels really accessible.

I would be interested though to see what happens in the wind! Although as you fire these in quite hard without spin i'm not sure it would be a big issue.
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Post by LostMeow » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:30 am

Yeah but a ball has equal air resistance in all directions, so it makes no difference if you spin it, whereas a disc needs the spin for gyroscopic stability...

Surely it needs at least a little spin? Pushing a disc through the air with no spin sounds like trying to balance a pin on its head!
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Post by Steve » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:15 am

I'm going to have to get someone to show me this in person. I've tried and tried and can't see how this works. My putting seriously sucks at the moment and I thought this was a glimmer of hope for me. Most frustrating. :(
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Post by rhatton1 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:32 pm

It really doesn't need it. I don't know the physics but it can go steadily through the air without spin. Drawing the arrows on the front of the disc showed this. at most I was getting half a turn from it between it leaving my hand and hitting the chains (or chair in the office) This turn I think was as a result of me not really launching the finger spring forward so there was still a little sideways movement of my index finger which generated the little spin on the disc.

When I launched it correctly there was no turn and you could feel it pushing off the palm.

It really is an aggressive positive stroke. with the arm not throwing it as such but just being launched forward by the bodies momentum. I found the hip thrust to be very important in generating this. Feldberg does reiterate the importance of this in the video. The beauty of it is you can afford to be really aggressive as without the spin even if you miss it can't go far past. If you have been tentative in your stroke before then you should really give this a go as you will have no fear of launching it.

It also feels like it would be very easy to turn the same action into a spin putt by just cocking your wrist and in this way be able to use a very similar action for much longer putts.
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Post by rhatton1 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:42 pm

Been out trying this again for the last three nights with mixed results.

First night was great, really felt confident, then its been a mixed bag for the last two nights, every now and again I fully commit to it and slam it in the chains without spin. Quite often though I don't and it wobbles out horribly. Does seem to be a bit all or nothing. The one great benefit is you don't ever end up more than a couple of meters away.

More practice needed i feel!
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Post by Steve » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:34 pm

I've given up with it, till someone can show it me. I must be doing something wrong, as I can't putt with it when I'm more than 30 cm from the basket and even then it's risky....

It has given me some ideas on stance and a more aggressive flick for my normal putt though.
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Post by DILLIGAF » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:12 pm

I had a go of this with little progress. I shall have a proper go this weekend.

Whilst there should be no spin I agree with the fact that there would be some rotation on the disc. A half to full rotation is not the same as a spinning putt.


Three weeks to master this new putting style.... Easy!!! :P

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Post by Paul Holden » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:00 am

How about this...

Don't think about throwing the whole disc at the basket, just the rim that you are holding. Imagine the part of the rim you are holding is part of a long stick or maybe a snooker cue that is pointed at the basket or perhaps slightly to one side (the left if you are a righty). As you project your arm forwards you want the cue to take a straight line to the basket. If you were to impart any spin to the disc this is the same as the tip of the cue moving off line and missing the basket (to the right if you are right handed to the left otherwise).

Any help?
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