Grip and Release Issues

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ManicMinerUK
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Grip and Release Issues

Post by ManicMinerUK » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:41 am

So how do you guys get the disc to leave your hand? I know it sounds a mad question but read on:

When I was first learning how to throw a disc for distance, all my internet research led me to believe that the disc actually pulls out of your hand through momentum, that deliberately letting the disc leave your grasp was a surefire way to lose any power you might have mustered beforehand, and therefore the ultimate no-no.

I practised for a while and I thought I was doing this, but over the last week I've been really trying to analyse my own throw, and I definitely loosen my grip in order to facilitate the disc coming out of my hand. This is causing me LOTS of problems... When I loosen too early I release early and throw a super-weak hyzer, when I loosen late I grip-lock/release off-line. It also makes nose angle control nearly impossibly as the loosening causes the disc to flop backwards in my hand and therefore release badly nose up.

However, when I don't loosen, the disc actually never leaves my hand. I can go through my entire driving motion at full speed and as long as I keep my grip reasonably strong the disc isn't going anywhere.

So, seriously, how do you get the disc out of your hand? Backhand or sidearm, but obviously I'm particularly interested in sidearm releases?

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rhatton1
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Post by rhatton1 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:39 pm

For aynthing up to about 60 meters (normally only comfortably up to 50) I am deliberately opening my grip. There is still resistance on the disc creating spin, generally its pulling off the knuckle of the long finger (can't remember what this finger is called)

I did use to grip tighter on these approaches and have the disc pull out, but this does lack accuracy. the new way I have been working on since a quick session with Bruce who described it as popping out of the fingers similar to a putting action. The way I have practised this is starting off 5 meters from a basket just "popping" the discs towards the basket then going back 5 meters, further and further until it is a full on approach and there is still the same finger release as with the putt, just a lot more use of the hips and shoulders. Its given me a similar straight nose up approach to the one I have been so jealous of in Del over the years and can be esasily adjusted with body position to do hyzer/anhyzer shots. Ithas taken a lot of practice to get this to be fairly reliable and I'm only just now after 5 months starting to feel comfortable with it.

For driving it rips out of my grip on a backhand. (not so sure on forehand, it feels more like it flicks off with that, I don't think I grip particularly tightly and can get up to about 90 meters, every now and again 100, more regulalry around 75 - 80 though. I use the thumb here more for stability) There is definitely no conscious release of the disc, it breaks out of the grip. At the speed it is coming out there is no way I could hold onto it. (i've tried once to stop mid drive and it still popped out) You can see the rubbed away stamp on most discs used where the thumb rips off.

EDIT

New post in a bit, thinking things through ATM.
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Post by ManicMinerUK » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:05 pm

so it would be fair to say that if you go through your backhand action at full speed with a disc in your hand, you cannot stop the disc from ripping out of your grip?

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Post by rhatton1 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:24 pm

Actually been thinking about this a bit more. The noise you hear when you hear "snap" is the fingers slapping back aginst the palm of the hand as they have been forced out by the disc and slap back into place from the force of the grip.

Snap itself doesn't improve distance by any great extent (possibly a bit more lift and glide will increase distance a bit from extra spin) but it does produce stability on the disc. Distance can only be produced by the velocity of the disc as it leaves your hand.

On thinking about it then Grip is not necessarily dependent on producing big drives. However it is entirely dependent on controlling them, more spin = more control. More spin doesn't (and I know there are a lot of people on here that will disagree with this, but it really is true) turn the disc over. More spin will stop the disc from turning over. It is only air speed over the disc that will make a disc fly understable.

This is something I used to do all the time. I could turn an overstable disc over I released on a hyzer, I imparted good velocity on the disc (my arm came through fast despite only being pulled from the shoulder) but I didn’t get the pull through that close to the body, I didn’t use my body well and I didn’t have that strong a grip so the disc would be moving quick through the air but hardly spinning at all. As the spin died off the disc would turn to the right. Spin dropped quicker than the disc speed and so this became more pronounced at the end of the flight. It used to be quite a useful tool at times as I could throw a flat shot and turn it over 80 meters down the fairway (perfect for hole 3 and 12 at QP)

I’ve since completely overhauled my action, using my body a lot more and I impart a lot of spin now on the disc, through better grip and bringing it through closer to the chest and using my arm as a whip rather than the main driving force. I can now throw further and faster without turning the disc over as its spinning a lot more. It has given me a hell of a lot more control and the disc does rip free of my fingers now every drive, whereas before there was probably more unintentional release occurring.

Anyway slightly off topic. In conclusion I would suggest its your arm speed that is the problem and the thing you need to work on, grip itself is not really the problem at the moment. I think you are often (and this is the problem related to the Disc golf review website) trying to go about three steps further forward than the level you are currently at. The advice on Disc golf review (whilst good and varied) tends to be more for going from 300 foot drives to 450 foot drives and beyond, its not about getting the basics going. Improve your flexibility and your arm speed will improve with it as you use your body more to whip your arm, at the moment you are just pulling your arm through from the shoulder, there is not the hip rotation and drive going into whipping your arm. Like many people on the British tour you are not using your body to full or even half effect.


Haven't really proof read the above yet, it was a bit of a let it flow moment, so there are almost certainly contradictions in the above, but the main points are valid.
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Post by Jester » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:05 pm

ManicMinerUK wrote:so it would be fair to say that if you go through your backhand action at full speed with a disc in your hand, you cannot stop the disc from ripping out of your grip?
No. I can (if I really try) put in a full power thrown and not let go of the disc. With the amount of potential speed however you put into a 100% throw it's pretty difficult!

I would say that if you are putting in a strong, confident throw it'll feel much more like you whan to let go of it than try and hang on which is just alien.
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Post by ManicMinerUK » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:48 am

That's quite interesting because I absolutely need to loosen my grip to get the disc to leave my hand. I think this is because I have very poor arm speed.

Naturally this is something I will work on improving but has anyone got any suggestions for a way to control my release until I can pull hard enough to overcome my fingers?

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Post by LostMeow » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:57 am

I've been wondering about this as well. It's my constant fear of grip-lock (because it happens regularly in practice) that makes me let go early on many BH drives, which consequently end up being rubbish. Thus I can't rely on my BH to drive at all and use it as little as possible, which leads to lack of practice using it during rounds and so on and so on.

I've read (Disc Golf Review Forum, of course) that poor timing of the action leads to grip-lock, but that statement in itself doesn't actually help anything.

In terms of FH, the flicking motion means that the disc rips off the middle finger with loads of spin, and given you're flicking towards the target that should give a focal point for where the disc should leave the hand.
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Jester
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Post by Jester » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:40 am

ATEOTD, you have to find what works for you personally. I'd try taking a stack of drivers to an open field and putting a cone out somewhere around 80m. Pick the grip you are going to test and throw each disc with it taking care to set it up identically each time.

On each throw concentrate on releasing on the line of the cone. It doesn't matter if the disc flies short, long, left or right of this, what you’re looking for is whether or not you have control of the point of release (without controlling the line of the disc out of your hand all other factors like disc mould, wind, terrain etc are irrelevant. You need a constant platform to work from!). :)

Review how successful you were at hitting the line, think about what felt good and what didn't, make adjustments and go again. There is not quick or easy answer to learning where the release point is, but you'll find it naturally with practice. Don't be discouraged or shy away from trying to find it, you'll only cost yourself shots in the long run. A stock band hand hyzer should be a shot in every players' arsenal.


In my personal experience, I used to use the 4-finger-in-the-rim power grip which gave me great snap but variable control. In 2001 [major name-drop alert] I was lucky enough to meet Climo at Europeans and play four practice rounds with him. I got to see his version of the power grip which when I tried suited me down to the ground.

The grip was stronger and give me the control over the release angle I was lacking. It doesn't work for everyone, but it might work for you. He goes over it in detail in this vid from 1:30:

Climo grip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAV8kKURKaw
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Post by ManicMinerUK » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:46 pm

just so that I'm not only posting on here when I'm having a problem, I actually had a very encouraging bit of success on this front last night. Probably its no help to all you old hands but for any newer players who are struggling with the same problem, here's what helped me.

Instead of gripping the disc my usual way, with the pads of my fingers on the rim, I switched to really digging my fingernails into the rim of the disc in more of a clenched fist. It's always hard to describe these kinds of changes in writing but here goes

Old Grip

This was almost exactly the grip I used to use when I fenced. It's also the grip I use on a golf club on the rare occasions I have one in my grasp. I line the disc up in my palm right along the centre line and then close my fingers down onto the rim, placing my fingerprints onto the rim in a line.

New Grip

This one is much easier to describe. Put your hand into the classic "thumbs up" position. Imagine a disc in it, gripped along the line of your fingers. with your thumb pushed as far forward as you can get it. I also moved the disc higher up my hand, so that the rim was digging into the ball/base of my thumb. This seemed very weird and unstable but was surprisingly strong during the actual pull.

The difference this grip made was pretty surprising to me. I got much flatter releases and the disc seemed to magically know when to leave my hand. I wasn't loosening or tightening at any point, and as I grew confident that the disc release was going to take care of itself I found I was able to really open my shoulders and swing a lot harder and wider* than I would ever have dared in the past. I kept expecting to find a limit where the disc would start slipping out again, or to griplock a shot and have to loosen again, but it just didn't happen. It was a bit magical. I was definitely putting in throw after throw that would have slipped out with my old grip, and the ripping sensation seemed to be actually accelerating my discs away from me.

* (Admittedly I'm led to believe that actually a wide swing of the arm and shoulders is a bad thing, but I think it's going to be easier to rein in a wide swing than ramp up a tight but nervous swing. )

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Post by Jester » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:49 pm

ManicMinerUK wrote: It's always hard to describe these kinds of changes in writing but here goes
Got a camera phone handy? A quick pick of your two grips and everyone's in the picture. Create an account on Photobucket.com to upload your pics to then use the option to Share then to get the line of code to paste into your forum posts. :)

Really glad to hear you're finding something that's working for you.
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Post by ManicMinerUK » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:16 am

As Rich Hatton can tell you... I'm a bit of a caveman when it comes to mobile phones.. hate the things and don't own one :)

Also I'm not actually sure the difference would come across in pictures... Rich reckons its similar to the grip Avery uses.

When the DGR forums are back up I'll be able to link you to a thread that has pictures of the grip I use now :)

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Post by rhatton1 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:24 pm

ManicMinerUK wrote:As Rich Hatton can tell you... I'm a bit of a caveman
More accurate description... :wink:
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Post by ManicMinerUK » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:24 pm

Had another session at the course and my slipping issues are back.

I'm pretty thoroughly fed up about this now.. I can't find a way of throwing the disc that rips properly... Either the disc never leaves my hand or it leaves early.

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Post by JesseD » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:32 pm

let go, and just throw.

simples
um,,,, ah,,,, um,,, a,,, um,, ah,,,

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Post by bruce » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:43 pm

ManicMinerUK wrote:Had another session at the course and my slipping issues are back.

I'm pretty thoroughly fed up about this now.. I can't find a way of throwing the disc that rips properly... Either the disc never leaves my hand or it leaves early.
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Post by DamnMassive » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:45 am

apply the same 'logic' that follows a good curry.....


.....relax and release!

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Post by JesseD » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:53 pm

DamnMassive wrote:apply the same 'logic' that follows a good curry.....


.....relax and release!
:D tooooooo right, good man :D
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Post by ManicMinerUK » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:46 pm

I'm not gonna be at the british open unfortunately, but I will be around at the Quarry Park Open in August...

I've had a couple more practice sessions since my last post and its still very patchy... I seem to go through a sequence when my grip is holding up okay, and so I get more confident and pull through harder and harder until I throw one that slips and then I'm back to square one...

If I really focus on clamping my grip super-tight before I start the throw that seems to help but I am led to believe this is actually the opposite of the best technique, which is to start out loose and just tighten right at the end...

I've tried that too but my hand just seems disobedient, and refuses to clamp down during the throwing motion... very odd...

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