BDGA AGM 2014

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Del
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by Del » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:37 pm

I haven't noticed an agenda for the AGM, nor a Treasurers report.
Great to see that Seamus will be helping with the Website
There has not been much discussion on this thread, so I guess the agenda will be official business of reports and elections, with other matters being for discussion rather than vote.
I'm not convinced of the necessity for 3 Scottish events at the moment, as there were very few players from within 4 hours drive who attended this year events, and I doubt many players from outside that range will be willing to make multiple long trips.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by LostMeow » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:05 pm

Beg pardon, the agenda will be this:

1. Opening statements
2. Comments on board reports
3. Board elections
4. AOB

Under AOB we have so far:
Seamus - masters div, Scottish BDGA events, website improvements
Jester - regulation of Tour course layouts
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:27 pm

Del wrote:I'm not convinced of the necessity for 3 Scottish events at the moment, as there were very few players from within 4 hours drive who attended this year events, and I doubt many players from outside that range will be willing to make multiple long trips.
I thought my membership said The British Disc Golf Association? That comment above only makes sense if we all belonged to the English Disc Golf Association. :)

The sport of disc golf is expanding rapidly in Scotland it would be nice to have the British Disc Golf Association as partner in this growth. Plus given the attendance numbers at a few Bdga events in 2014 there could easily be 4 Bdga Tour events in Scotland in 2015.
IMO The best way to influence additional Bdga memberships in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is to bring the tour to the players by hosting more events under the Bdga banner.

Best of luck to all the players at Nationals and NTN
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:29 am

For reference sake -attendance at tour events 2014 (from PDGA website)

Bristol - 40
QP Spring - 60
Reboot - 36
Mull - 37
Burnlaw - 25
NI Mourne - 18
Mendip - 33
Essex - 62
Croydon - 59
QP Open - 75
Burnlaw - 31

There was certainly a midlands to south east dominance in attendance no's this year. Would a third Scottish event manage to pull in mid thirties again? Del is right to point out that the majority of players at both events were from a long way away. At Reboot for instance out of the open division of 14, 9 players were based over 5 hours drive away, virtually the entire Ad am division (I don't know a couple of the people, it could be all of them) and around half the ints. Whilst its great that players from so far afield were at the event it's asking a lot for them to be at a third especially with Mull as even more of an adventure to get to, it's not cheap to attend a tour event that far away in terms of money and time.

On a side note what numbers do we see as a good result for a national tour event? If getting to host a NT event is getting more competitive what would we want to see achieved each year to keep in contention for the next?

Unless the tour event was to support growth in a geographical area (Mourne for example and you wouldn't need more than one event for this purpose) then for me it would be attendance of 40+ split fairly evenly across all divisions, proper tees throughout even if temporary for the tournament, PDGA standard baskets (height from ground as well as basket specs), clear copies of accounts for public record as minimums - this is if we are going down the more "professional" payout route for the tour.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:08 pm

rhatton1 wrote:Del is right to point out that the majority of players at both events were from a long way away. At Reboot for instance out of the open division of 14, 9 players were based over 5 hours drive away, virtually the entire Ad am division (I don't know a couple of the people, it could be all of them) and around half the ints.
At this point where else would Bdga Tour players travel from?
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by bruce » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:51 pm

seamus wrote:
rhatton1 wrote:Del is right to point out that the majority of players at both events were from a long way away. At Reboot for instance out of the open division of 14, 9 players were based over 5 hours drive away, virtually the entire Ad am division (I don't know a couple of the people, it could be all of them) and around half the ints.
At this point where else would Bdga Tour players travel from?
This is a fair point, you'd have to expect the bulk of locals in a new/growth areas to be Int Ams. That said I don't really see this as a policy decision. I don't think we'd turn down a bid for a 3rd Scottish event just for being Scottish, we just have to fit all events into a coherent schedule. There have been 3 Scottish events in the past, with Mull, Crook of Devon and Ullapool.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by LostMeow » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:09 pm

Please follow this link to read the minutes from last Saturday's AGM.

http://bit.ly/bdga-agm2014

Let me know if you have any comments or necessary amendments (e.g. if I have transcribed your contribution incorrectly!)
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by Hopper » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:05 pm

Tom, How do we read it ? Blank screen ? :(

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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:37 pm

Works for me ok.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:45 pm

Thank You for incorporating the suggestions regarding a Masters division and Bdga expansion in Scotland at the AGM.

Regarding a Masters Division;

Jester- ……..The tour points system could be seen as a bit of a millstone around our necks, stopping us from making a change like this 

Pulling division scores from a completed tournament and playing/competing/enjoying disc golf with your peer group are not equal and should not be considered as such. IMO the above comment by Jester is a bulls eye.

Regarding a 3rd BDGA Tour event in Scotland;

Very little would change in Pdga player ratings and/or rankings if the BDGA Tour consisted of EVERY Pdga event held in the UK. What changes is the inability for Touring players to compete financially with this expansion because Power Stats is based on participation as well as performance.

Conclusion: Little opposition to a third event in Scotland "if high quality"– however, not going to set fixed numbers of events by location, would prefer to select based on quality of bid.
Action: Director of Competitions (Phil) to continue to push for higher standards and be open minded to new events, wherever they might be.

If High Quality? It seems the standard set in 2014 for a Bdga Tour event is a minimum attendance of 18, 18 homemade baskets, (that don't necessarily need to be set properly) with earth Tees and no tee signs.
Its not a criticism that's just where the sport is at this point in emerging areas.


IMO the biggest question was avoided, (or not included in the minutes)
What is the goal of the BDGA Tour?
A disc golf "Players Development Tour" or a "Qualified Players Tour"?
Either way I say go for it, its staying in the middle trying to be both at 10/11 events a year as the sport explodes that will make the system seem very subjective.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by LostMeow » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:30 am

I may have phrased that poorly in my summary. Did you also read the part that said "Seamus brings high quality and pedigree. Well designed courses. Surely will be proposing a high quality event. Should be borne in mind."? Because nobody there knew of a third 18-hole course in Scotland there was a general lack of knowledge as to what the third Scottish event would be - it was a shame you couldn't be there to represent your points more thoroughly. People were guarded about making a wholesale commitment to "there will be 3 Tour events in Scotland" without knowing what they were committing to. Basically my line about 'high quality' was an attempt to summarise the general consensus that people weren't opposed to three events in Scotland but didn't necessarily want it to become set in stone without knowing what the event was. e.g. if you said it would be a weekend at a 9-hole beginner's course, which might well be equipped with beautiful tee-pads, signs and the works, 3 rounds of 18 (so 6 times round the 9-hole course) and a final, people might not be that thrilled to travel all that way.

For years we have had a situation where there were fewer 'championship' courses than places on the Tour, so venues had multiple events and some could get away with "minimum attendance of 18, 18 homemade baskets, (that don't necessarily need to be set properly) with earth Tees and no tee signs" - only now are we starting to get towards venues competing for places on the Tour, which Phil hopes will start to drive standards upwards.

I'm not sure why there is a necessity for all PDGA(-rated) events to have to be considered part of the BDGA Tour. You have the Quaich Tour and down South we have the SEDGS (SMEGS) one-day series, which has been very successful (lots of new local players joining in) without needing BDGA banners all over it, or "BDGA presents..." in the invite (although both of those things would be do-able). This shows that one-day events can work perfectly well outside the Tour - especially when combined into their own competitive series (SEDGS awards points for places and players have been keenly contesting the divisions). We have less evidence as to whether stand-alone (non-Tour) two-day events have any draw and Dan & I were drawing up plans to try one at Croydon to see what demand would be like.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:08 am

Cheers Tom
I'd bet you have the player base in your area to pull off the event.

I was planning on attending Nationals at Bedworth but the venue change proved a bit too far. I've heard much about Whitcombe from local players and its on my disc golf bucket "must play" list, right after Croydon.
Please do not take offense to my comments either I have an affinity for proving "life is too short for BS" in text and would have much rather been in attendance to hear comments in context and gladly debate and learn about the issues along with the history behind them. I did read all the minutes Thanks everyone for the kind words.

My suggestion that all Pdga events fall under the Bdga umbrella was a hypothetical attempt to caution that disc golf competitions are expanding more rapidly with the Pdga system than the local Bdga system.

Also I do not like to discuss potential developments until they are completed or started mostly to avoid looking foolish when things change, and they always do. My apologies for the No information.
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Although we have a rough draft The Quaich Tour is a big question mark as far as dates go for now, we have an opportunity to host 10 events in '15, I imagine we might settle with 8. They will all be C-Tiers (except The Battle) so I'll definitely post the schedule of events in case anyone can attend.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by Del » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:37 pm

Seamus, can you articulate what sort of tournament structure you would like to see? Or maybe a couple of different models?
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:34 pm

Sure Del, I can try......
This is the NEFA Points Charter, its the system in New England that operates along side the Pdga. The Points Charter has evolved with the growth of the sport in New England, I refer to this Charter and the Nefa website often when planning for the Quaich Tour because I know it worked. We* grew the sport in Massachusetts from 4 courses in '97 to over 40 in '12 due to encouraging emerging areas to host events under the Nefa banner. The pioneers of Nefa built disc golf in New England long before the Pdga arrived, at one point in New England there was probably 10 Nefa events for every Pdga event(2001ish), that trend has since ceased to exist due to the sports popularity.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sst ... a0zPA/edit

I would suggest cherry picking this Charter and using the ideas that suit the Board to move the Bdga Tour forward.

I will say that the Tour system in New England was built on inclusion, any interested event that met the criteria were welcomed into the series. There are no Sub-series like the Quaich Tour and SEMDGS, they never needed to develop because of the simplicity of being involved with the Nefa points series. (There is however a fantastic Team Challenge that takes place in the off-season, but that seems to be a drinking party disguised as a disc golf tournament) Another difference was the Series was built on 36 hole one day events because they tended to be more accessible. The advantage of a one day series became apparent when two venues were muscling for the same weekend one could always take Saturday and the other Sunday like we are doing this year in the Quaich Tour with Ace Adventures and Craggan Golf course in the Highlands.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by Del » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:25 pm

How are points awarded? Is it based on number of people you beat in your division or is it 100 points for first place etc
What did you perceive to be the strengths and weaknesses of the system?
How many events counted? Sounds like the number of events went up with the growth of courses, did the number of counting events flex with this? Did it work better at any particular number of events or level of attendance?
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:30 pm

I would bet the difference is points allocation is negligible between Nefa and the Power Stats, 100 points to the division winner plus a small percentage bump per competitor beaten in your division. The funny thing is if Nefa points have been around for 20 years than that's how long the debate has raged in how best to distribute points at a tournament.
The strength of this system is its ability to grow the sport through inclusion, every event was included on level ground. That is the toughest jagged little pill to swallow as a competitor but its necessary in order to allow emerging areas to prosper. The winner of a tournament with 3 open players received 100.3 points and the winner of an event with 19 Open players receives 101.90 points. Every event was included on a level playing field and the free market decided which events were most attended. If Ken Jarvis called from Ireland about affiliation into our Quaich Tour I would put it to our committee and personally vote Yes. Why Not? that is inclusion.

Right now a Nefa event has a mandatory 12 divisions but it wasn't always like that. If I remember correctly in '97 when Jason Southwick (the Del Robins/Charlie Mead of Massachusetts) called to see if I was interested in incorporating Nefa into our event, The Vineyard Social, the series represented 3 divisions, Open, Am and Int Am, then it grew from there.
I'm hoping that the Quaich Tour will be on the same track evolving divisions the year before it needs to in order to insure there is a seat at the table for everyone. Sanctioning and player fees will hopefully follow once we have an established player base, at the present we are struggling to fill divisions so its a moot point but we are just entering our 2nd year.
If we had the fortitude in the Quaich Tour and followed the Nefa points charter of £20 sanctioning fee per event with a £1 per player tax PLUS a Quaich Tour match of £1 we would have had a £380+/- purse to use in our finale, Tourney 45 even before entry fees, It adds up quick.

Hypothetically speaking if you wedged the Bdga Tour, SEMDGS and the Quaich Tour into the Nefa Points Series standards nearly every Pdga tournament held in the UK would be under the Bdga umbrella, but the current Bdga Tour of 10/11 events would be considered double points events based on merit and count twice in the standings. If the UK were broken up into four sections that would help too.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by Phil Wood » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:58 pm

How many events counted towards your final score? All you attend, or best 3/4/5?

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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by bruce » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:26 am

Interesting that this is pretty much what I suggested here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1793#p22217

I'd go a step further and forget all regional boundaries wrt to qualifying events and any bespoke scoring. Just use PDGA points (we are embedded enough that just about every stroke play event is PDGA sanctioned already). Any UK event is included by default, but not only that there is an incentive to attend European and international events where larger points are available. We might have to exclude invitational events like USDGC and EC for fairness, if you do that the final points table looks remarkably similar to the stats, both for Pro & Am.
[edit] I meant to say I wouldn't even bother with an 'n events from x' format, make it straight cumulative, it seems to make little overall difference.

The cash overlay is fine by me, but I really don't know how well it would be received
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:02 am

Phil Wood wrote:How many events counted towards your final score? All you attend, or best 3/4/5?
In Nefa there is a finals called the NEDGC where the points series funds are allocated to players that qualify.

From the Charter
Division Minimum Number of Events
The following will be the minimum number of events for the season standings and end of season payout:
Pro Open 6
Pro Masters 5
Pro Grandmasters 5
Pro Women 4
Advanced 6
Intermediate 5
Advanced Masters 5
Advanced Grandmasters 5
Advanced Women 4
Intermediate Women 4
These qualifying minimums are also the maximum number of events used to calculate a player’s Points. In other words, a player’s worst Points events beyond the required number of events are dropped from his/her Points.
bruce wrote:Interesting that this is pretty much what I suggested here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1793#p22217
As stated yes but its not nearly blunt or divisive enough to get noticed, I can help you with that.
bruce wrote:The cash overlay is fine by me, but I really don't know how well it would be received
The series did not lead with such a heavy cash overlay, that only came after Nefa as a club had purchased 9/18 baskets to lend to emerging areas to host events.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:29 am

If I could add one line to the Bdga Tour guidelines it would include a Pdga B Tier exemption.
All Bdga touring members with a Pdga Amateur Status, a rating above 920 and/or declare Open for 2015 be granted a B Tier exemption to allow them to play in the Advanced Amateur Division at larger regional events. It would be considered a player option not a given.
The Top Ams in the UK would pose no threat to win the Am portion of Power Stats even if they won both UK B-Tiers in '15. The player would only accrue 200+/- points which would put that player around 20th place by the end of the touring season.
By making this adjustment the Euro Tour event could also be considered as a Bdga Tour allowing Open players to mix it up with other European players and still earn Bdga Tour points.

Objections?
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