BDGA AGM 2014

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Jester
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by Jester » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:40 pm

This is an interesting discussion, and I think a few nuances may be getting missed on either side. May I humbly suggest rather than debating the detailed points back and forth, it might be more useful at this point to draw a line and state the proposed Disc Golf Tournament model each person has in his mind for the future? That way we’ll have a clear idea of what’s being argue for on both sides.

For example, from what I’ve read:

- I THINK that Tom’s proposing a BDGA National Tour of 8-10 two-day PDGA events on different weekends around the UK (how the Tour currently runs)
- Tour events are linked by a scoring system, and points accrued throughout the year add up to crown an overall Tour Champion
- Players can also track their skill improvement in their PDGA Player Rating
- Regional Tours and individual one-day events happen when clubs or individuals wish organise these themselves. These may be PDGA events and may not have their own scoring tables, but whatever the case they are independent and do not integrate with the National Tour

- I THINK that Seamus is proposing a fundamental change to the BDGA National Tour, moving it away from something that produces an Overall Champion, to something like a BDGA National Series* of 4-5 Major two-day PDGA events on different weekends around the UK
- While players at these Majors will score PDGA points, these are incidental. Series events are not linked by a scoring system as we know it, there is no overall accruing of points throughout the year and there is no overall Tour Champion (side note – this does not stop the BDGA National Championship aka The Top 16 still taking place with a new means of qualification TBD)
- Regional Tours and individual one-day events happen when clubs or individuals wish organise these themselves. These may or may not have their own scoring tables, and if they are PDGA events players will score PDGA points, but again they are independent and do not integrate with the National Series
- Players track their improvement only in their PDGA Player Rating

*Specific use of the word ‘Series’ over ‘Tour’ to denote the difference between a Tour of events linked by a scoring system that produces an overall champion, to a Series of individual events that do not.

NB - the use of 'PDGA event' above means a sanctioned A, B or C Tier PDGA tournament that players attending get round ratings.

I believe Seamus feels that giving clubs and individuals around the country the ability to run one-day BDGA branded events on any day they like, that can be called part of a BDGA National Series, will help bring a validity to each event for potential new players, sponsors, media, land owners and decision makers alike. Like the Majors, if the one-day events are not tied to an overall Tour scoring system TDs would have the ability to offer any PDGA Divisions there was demand for. The sacrifice is losing the ability to identify an overall Tour Champion, although some may argue the time of being able to continue to do that and support growth is coming to an end.

Lads, I hope neither of you will take offence at me having a stab at summarising where I think you are both coming from? I’m sure I’ve made mistakes. For instance, Seamus I’ve completely left out anything to do with the New England DG scoring method as I couldn’t see how it fits in with my assumptions of your position above. Please do clarify and correct.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by bruce » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:06 pm

Seamus, Phil, Neil Martin, Robb Hamilton and myself are the BDGA sub-group looking at the future of the BDGA tour. We're having our first call tonight.
At this point there are no right or wrong ideas and we will seek further thoughts from the wider group down the line (see item 2 on the agenda).

Agenda:
1. Purpose of the Tour

Discussion points:
Development/growth of local scenes vs Overarching championship
Inclusiveness vs Elite events series
Setting goals/targets

2. Questionnaire

Discussion points:
Target audience
List of questions

3. Tour formats

Discussion points:
Brainstorm possible formats
How many do we want to narrow down to
Outlining high level proposals
Test criteria
[Standard post disclaimer] My posts are never intended to undermine the work of the Board or individuals putting in effort to grow the sport, they are my honest thoughts on the best ways to grow the game

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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by bruce » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:36 pm

LostMeow wrote:
seamus wrote: My point again in regards to the evoloution of the Bdga Tour is that the Pdga tournament structure of Tiers allows a flexibility to TD's the Bdga Tour does not
See, I can't agree with that. The PDGA tiers do not allow flexibility, in fact they do the complete opposite - they bind the TD into a strict set of rules and criteria concerning fund-raising, pay-outs, player packs, regulations etc. Not flexible at all, very constricting in fact. Using the lowest PDGA tier possible (C tier) allows us the most flexibility to do what we want - in terms of prizes, divisions, players packs etc. - while still getting the benefit of PDGA stats.
I think the point here is that while the C Tier allows us maximum flexibility, the BDGA Tour structure then imposes a more restrictive format to support the stats system.
LostMeow wrote:
seamus wrote: I think it would be considered a mistake to not change the Bdga Tour to capitalize on this trend of successful one-dayers. Like I've stated before I'd support including every disc golf event in the UK as a Bdga event and I also support the Tour contracting to 4-5 majors, its not evolving I find troubling and would warn against it.
See, this cuts to the chase of what I see as your contradiction. You want to include all events as BDGA (Tour?) events but at the same time cut the BDGA Tour down to 4-5 major events. So which is it?
One or the other, Seamus opposes the status quo. I'd guess he prefers the former idea though. If we modify the Tour to include all events that would necessitate us adopting a less rigid format. If we reduce the Tour to a smaller number of events, the remaining events do not have to conform, so again the flexibility increases.
LostMeow wrote: The nature of a Tour surely involves travelling. At the moment I believe players want (not need) the chance to travel to play courses they don't get to play week-in-week-out. Having BDGA Tour events spread over the UK gives us that chance, with more local one-day events as well. So we're currently getting the best of both worlds.
There is a subsidiary point here, in that I don't believe all the current courses will survive if we don't have a Tour of some sort. Some venues are only viable for a dedicated 2 day event, they do not have the supporting local or regional scene to survive otherwise.

LostMeow wrote:No, I didn't say 'BDGA Tour: Brighton', I said 'BDGA SMEGS Brighton'... This labelling difference I mentioned before. Seems quite crucial?
Would it have been different if it was 'BDGA Tour: Brighton'?
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Jester
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by Jester » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:52 pm

bruce wrote:There is a subsidiary point here, in that I don't believe all the current courses will survive if we don't have a Tour of some sort. Some venues are only viable for a dedicated 2 day event, they do not have the supporting local or regional scene to survive otherwise.
Not coming down on either side of the line, it might be asked in your debate tonight:
1 – Is it the responsibility of the national competition structure to keep courses alive by scheduling an annual visit?
2 – If there is no local player base or growth, what other value to the sport do events at these locations provide e.g. professionalism of event, quality of course & facilities, marketability (aka huge prize fund)
3 – Would the hours, money and energy expended by those organising and attending reap greater rewards if they were channelled into running one or more local events elsewhere where a player base could be built?
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by LostMeow » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:31 pm

I wasn't proposing anything per se, I was trying to make clear (in my own head, if anything) Seamus's many ideas and comments - to do that I was comparing them with the status quo, I guess, because that's something concrete rather than hypothetical.

There's a geographical angle which I think needs to be separated. This Scottish vs. British vs. English thing, which we all had rammed down our throats during the Scottish independence debate, must be separate from questions of how a BDGA Tour might work. Our geopolitical system is complicated. How many events we have in Scotland vs England, for me, is not a useful debate - as it would be equally difficult to decide then within England how events could be divided up between counties, for example. There's a myriad of factors to be considered, as have been mentioned - quality of event, local player base, potential for development etc. and getting hung up on which (sub-)country it's in seems to distract from those considerations. I get a sense from some of what Seamus writes (and this may well be my miscomprehension) that he feels that Scotland is in some way being abandoned or ignored by the BDGA hierarchy, which I don't think is true at all.

In terms of the Tour/Series I have the following comments:
By Jester's definition, SMEGS is actually a Tour - the events give points which add towards a title.
You could label all DG competitions in the UK with a prefix 'BDGA National Series' but I don't really see that making a meaningful difference. As far as I'm concerned, tournaments could always have used the BDGA brand if they wanted to.
I do personally like the idea of a Tour consisting of a set number of events (8-10 seems to have worked well given the number of 18-hole courses we have), giving points towards a final 'leaderboard' and I can't see how that would work as effectively if any event can just add themselves to it, be it a one-day, two-day, one-round, Ace Race, Birdie Bash or whatever.
I'm not convinced, however, that our Tour points system currently is as good as it could be.
Tom
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Jester
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by Jester » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:46 pm

LostMeow wrote:I wasn't proposing anything per se, I was trying to make clear (in my own head, if anything) Seamus's many ideas and comments - to do that I was comparing them with the status quo, I guess, because that's something concrete rather than hypothetical.
Yeah, sorry, mate, I shouldn't have said you were 'proposing' this, just using the current Tour structure as a benchmark.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:05 pm

I don't feel slighted by the Bdga Board at all in any way. I'm hoping the Board will see my point to evolve the Bdga Tour into something more inclusive and adopt the Pdga division standards. When the 2014 Pdga demographics are published it will show a massive increase in Pdga memberships and tournaments held. I think comparing that increase percentage to the 7.5% Bdga Tour increase of the same year will prove The Bdga National Tour Series should evolve to be more inclusive in order to capture and retain new players from current and emerging areas.
Jester wrote:I believe Seamus feels that giving clubs and individuals around the country the ability to run one-day BDGA branded events on any day they like, that can be called part of a BDGA National Series, will help bring a validity to each event for potential new players, sponsors, media, land owners and decision makers alike.
Yes.
bruce wrote:I think the point here is that while the C Tier allows us maximum flexibility, the BDGA Tour structure then imposes a more restrictive format to support the stats system.
Affirmative,
bruce wrote:One or the other, Seamus opposes the status quo. I'd guess he prefers the former idea though. If we modify the Tour to include all events that would necessitate us adopting a less rigid format. If we reduce the Tour to a smaller number of events, the remaining events do not have to conform, so again the flexibility increases.
Yes Sir, I'd rather see the Bdga National Tour Series be more inclusive and allow TD's to host one event per year per course, but contracting the Tour to 4-5 majors would be an easier step.
Jester wrote:- I THINK that Seamus is proposing a fundamental change to the BDGA National Tour, moving it away from something that produces an Overall Champion
Yes and No why couldn't the current points allocation format (Power Stats) for the Bdga National Tour Series be applied to any designated division? Like a Masters division for example with The National Champion emerging from the Open division only.
Jester wrote:I’ve completely left out anything to do with the New England DG scoring method
Points allocation discussion is a true bottomless pit of debate, proving there is a better system than the current one for Power Stats is a great place to start. I can't think of one.
Cheers for the translations and Jester for the Glossary.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by ChrisOBrien » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:49 pm

Interesting stuff.
We're in safe hands. Agree it's time to change and I like the main points raised by seamus.
Look forward to the questionnaire!
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by bruce » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:00 pm

Really good discussion this evening. We hope to get the questionnaire out by the end of the week to run til the end of the month.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by seamus » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:15 pm

After all the discussion involving my feeling that one day events are superior to two day events in regards to growing the sport at the grass roots level.........

The Quaich Tour is set to begin with 4 two day events,
The Battle at Bluebell Woods- British Disc Golf Open (March)
The Scottish Open (April)
The Loch Tay Open (April)
Ace Adventures-Craggan Outdoors Open (May dates TBD)

Now that's funny.
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Re: BDGA AGM 2014

Post by rhatton1 » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:56 pm

seamus wrote:
Now that's funny.
:D
seamus wrote:After all the discussion involving my feeling that one day events are superior to two day events in regards to growing the sport at the grass roots level.........
This may have got lost in translation but I never realised that this was what you were arguing for! I am in total agreement, grass routes level growth one daters far outweigh the benefit of 2 day events and i've wanted to see far more of these on the calendar for a long time, it was great to see Smegs started last year, If i had the time away from home at the moment I would definitely be organising a lot of local ones in a similar format, I hope Gary carries on with this idea for the midlands (hint hint nudge nudge....)

The bit I am still confused over is the need to change the tour structure for two day tour events (although more than happy to see an overhaul of the points system) , why can both not sit side by side? i'm not sure what the gain is from losing an overall two day tour championship race.

Can someone explain this to me like I'm a five year old as i'm totally confused as to what changes are being asked for in regards to the National tour format and why? I'm lost as to why the current tour is rigid in comparison to the PDGA model? I know it's been discussed above but having read all that I'm still as confused.

On a side note - is this possible in the UK? http://www.pdga.com/leagues if it comes back from the questionnaire that this is something people are really interested in (constant ratings updated - I definitely am) If it's not possible (I didn't think it was when I looked into it a while back) can the board negotiate an overarching deal for UK clubs interested (i'm totally confused as to what it would cost to run this sort of thing)
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