Money money money

Does what it says on the tin!

Should we have prize money and payout ratios on the BDGA Tour (assuming that we have at least 3 ratings based divisions)

Poll ended at Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:45 pm

No, not on any Tour events.
1
10%
Leave it to the TD.
6
60%
Yes, make it mandatory for all main Tour events
3
30%
 
Total votes: 10

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Money money money

Post by Del » Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:45 pm

This could stir things up. Should we move towards payout ratios in our national tour events, and even more contentiously pay cash to Pros and merchandise to Ams? Probably need to split the field into Pro, Advanced and Intermediate because our Open division covers too wide a range of ability and some people would never cash. PDGA events pay the top 35-38% of pro positions.

This may not be popular with TD's as it would limit the capability of tournaments to raise cash to fund courses and equipment. I know I have spent a lot over the years, not just on course equipment, but event specific stuff such as tents, tables, chairs, scoreport, water containers, coolers, catering equipment etc. One answer would be to grow the regional events as a secondary source of income.

TD's also have enough on their plate without having to raise sponsorship money. However in getting sponsorship the TD/club will be pushed into getting more publicity and involvement with the local community, thus promoting the game.

The american system does seem to have led to much higher entry fees, around 80-100 dollars for A tiers.

There will be players who are too good for Advanced and would be accused of sandbagging if they did not move up, but really don't want to play for cash, and dont want to put cash into a pot for someone else to take.

To the extent that we are playing for each others cash there is no net gain to players. The winners may be happy, but the flip side will be unhappy losers. So will prize money boost the game, or spoil the sport? Maybe youngsters will be excited at the possibility of making money from sport.

Waddya reckon?

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Post by bruce » Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:48 am

There are two areas for discussion here:
1) Should we move to payouts now/soon?
2) Should we ever move to payouts?

Personally, I don't think our Tour currently has the strength in depth to support a payout structure. The same select group of people finish in the top positions, so would simply take all the cash/merch.

As to the future, I'd question why we'd want to move the BDGA into a professional arena? The PDGA is already looking to strengthen its presence in Europe, and will offer all the same things that we saw at the British Open and other PDGA events, ie Pro payouts in cash, Am payouts in merch.
I know that there are frequent rumblings in the States about having an Amateur DGA, not to compete with the PDGA, but to offer an alternative very similar to what we currently run. I suggest that we'd be better of keeping the BDGA as a strictly Amateur organisation, but encouraging the growth of PDGA events in the UK.

Longer term, I'd see a PDGA British Tour being a 3-5 event, all PDGA tour, acting as qualifiers for Nationals.
But there would still be a strictly Am BDGA Tour of some sort, quite possibly running on the same weekends, even multiple events on the same weekends, in the same way as say the Southern Nationals works in the US (see http://www.sndg.org).

Obviously, we don't have the membership levels at the moment to support this, but I fully expect us to keep growing. Despite BDGA membership being down last year, I strongly feel that more people were playing DG, and once a certain critical mass is reached, it will take off. It happened in the US, and in the UK for the Ultimate scene...

Anywho, maybe I should do some work today :roll:

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Post by discgolfer_1999 » Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:40 pm

This is just my view and i will not be in the country long eneogh to see these effects, but here is my input

I personally do not think it matters how many people you have to determine wether their should be a payout or not. In the States, events with 10 people still payout.

I think payout does cause some concern for sandbagging which is just an issue that needs to be worked out, but I also see payout to be a good reason for an individual to want to improve.

I agree that most of the same players would benefit from payout, which is another reason for players to improve their game, But I also would rather see the money from a tournament go to the player(s) who have played well and deserve it, rather than to a TD who gains proffit from running an event. There is other ways for a TD to raise money to cover tournament expenses.

Ams playing for merchandise is another added bonus. Ams play and those who play well, go home with a few extra discs, which can be used to help impove their game. It also helps encourage people to want to attend a little more knowing that their is a chance thay they will come home with more than they came with and those players that are still learning and might not cash, are not playing for any less than they would have in the past. But again, even if I am the player who did not play as well. I would rather see the money or merchandise go to the players who deserve it, than to a TD.

Dont get me wrong I think TD's deserve a little for their time, but again their are other ways for a TD to make money from an event that does not come directly from my pocket.

Because Am payout is paid out in merchandise, this is another way for a TD to improve their tournament, because ultimatly there is money to paid from Am payout since the payout is done at a larger dollar amount than the cost of the merchandise.

Again this is just my input and I FULLY think that their should be a payout structure for every event.

It sucks to play in a tournament, win or do really well and walk away with nothing..

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Post by madfrolfer » Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:12 pm

While I would like to see a payout structure for the BDGA National Tour Events, I think it would involve a lot of changes that maybe the members aren't ready to make. As Del noted, having a Pro payout would most likely result in the BDGA having to offer more divisions. This would, and I am only guessing, have an impact on the Powerstats. We see how hard it is to keep up with Powerstats at the moment, then there would have to be changes made to it as well to cope with the new divisions. I am not sure if there is the manpower to handle that.

I would like to see the whole payout situation be up to the TD's. That way TD's would be able to try their hand at PDGA events if they wanted. This would lead to the BDGA having more possible locations for the British Open with TD's who have experience running PDGA events. Again though, this would cause problems with Powerstats because of people playing in different divisions then they normally do.


All in all, I guess maybe there should be some changes made in regards to what is expected out of National Tour events. An agreed percentage of entry fees should be set as the TD's cut, all the rest should be put directly into the events. If not in the form of cash or discs, then in Trophies and players packs. As Scott said there are more options for TD's to make money from their events.

They could sell discs, charge for camping (which is already being done) or charge a percentage from onsite merchants for sales at the event. Instead of including the meals in the entry fee, have a meal option for players to decide if they want it. This way they are making money, but keeping it seperate from the entry fees. It would also hopefully push them to going into the community for sponsorship, as the actual money from the entry fees has to go back to the players in some form. I know there are some venues who like to put on a nice tournament, this is good, but the availability of cash from the entry fees does not promote growth. Interaction with the community does, and that should be a major concern when determining how the tour is run.
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Post by bruce » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:19 pm

discgolfer_1999 wrote:I personally do not think it matters how many people you have to determine wether their should be a payout or not. In the States, events with 10 people still payout.
Yea, but there's a reasonable chance that any of those 10 could finish in the top third, and hence cash. In the UK, it's highly unlikely that any more than half the field can finish in the top third, if that. Basically, the weaker Open players will end up paying cash to the top half, and resent it.
I agree that most of the same players would benefit from payout, which is another reason for players to improve their game, But I also would rather see the money from a tournament go to the player(s) who have played well and deserve it, rather than to a TD who gains proffit from running an event. There is other ways for a TD to raise money to cover tournament expenses.
Do you think that TD's are making huge profits? I don't think so. My experience is that most events pretty much break even. Even if TD's were to raise more cash from 'other ways', I'd rather see that money put into providing a better event (course signage, subsidised accomodation/food etc) than thrust into the hands of a select few!
Ams playing for merchandise is another added bonus. Ams play and those who play well, go home with a few extra discs, which can be used to help impove their game.
Personally, I've yet to recieve a disc as merch that wasn't completely useless to me. My impression from the PDGA forum is that most 'cashing' ams have garages full of useless plastic that they sell on eBay for hard cash, making it little different from the pro division.
Because Am payout is paid out in merchandise, this is another way for a TD to improve their tournament, because ultimately there is money to paid from Am payout since the payout is done at a larger dollar amount than the cost of the merchandise.
Maybe stateside(or with your military advantages), but with the UK markup, or postage/customs cost to get stuff delivered, I doubt TD's would do better than break even.
Again this is just my input and I FULLY think that their should be a payout structure for every event.

It sucks to play in a tournament, win or do really well and walk away with nothing..
Why? When I go to the cinema, I don't expect to recieve my ticket price in merch to take home with me, I go for the pleasure of the experience. When I play pool in the pub, I play to win cos I like winning, and like the respect I get from my peers for it (fully expecting smack on this subject :roll: ).

Maybe there is a case for having trophies for the top 5 in division at each event, if only so you feel a little more fulfilled when you've played well :wink:

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Post by madfrolfer » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:03 pm

Bruce wrote:Why? When I go to the cinema, I don't expect to recieve my ticket price in merch to take home with me, I go for the pleasure of the experience. When I play pool in the pub, I play to win cos I like winning, and like the respect I get from my peers for it
That would be (should be) the difference between going out with a couple of friends, and attending a BDGA National Tour Event.

I don't mind most of the arguments, but that was pretty weak.

The whole idea of the the TD's taking the profit isn't based on us thinking it is some ungodly sum that they do not deserve. It is the based on the fact that we would rather see that money go back to the competitors in some shape or form.

Now this is my perspective:

I really am not concerned about bringing home any money from the BDGA events, becasue they are not presented as cash paying events. My main thing is I would like to see the money generated used more productively. We should set a percentage for the TD to take as his cut. Set a standard entry fee for all BDGA Tour Events. The events that the extra doesn't go to charity or something should then be put the BDGA account (not to be used for anything other than purchasing baskets). At the end of the year, the BDGA can buy however many baskets it can afford. Then BDGA can award the purchased baskets to some school, or park, or any public place that has agreed to try Disc Golf. Then every member who wished he had a course nearby, can get to work on getting approval, and trying to submit the best case for why his spot should be awarded the baskets. If there are no places that approve them one year, then next year there are more baskets, and everyone can try again.

If something like this had been in place before, then the BDGA might have had some baskets for Richard to install in Croydon, or Conor at Harrogate. Heck, you never know maybe one of these rootsycourses Bud designs was approved to have baskets. Then there would be access to some. The main thing would be to get these baskets installed in Public places. I know there has been attempts in the past to get a course installed, and the people involved where unable to do so. But that doesn't mean it is a lost cause, just means that it has to be tryed again and again until one goes in.


Please keep in mind, that the arguments Scott and I are making are about how the 'BDGA National Tour' is run. Not the sunday social round.

P.S.
Here are some ideas for those discs that you won at tournaments that you don't need. Next time you are at the park practicing, and somebody asks what you are doing, pull one of them out let them have a go and tell them to keep it. Or take one along to every event you attend, donate one as a prize, or look for some newby who decided to show up and only has a couple. Send them to Conor or Steve or Angus, I am sure the students could use them. Everytime I get a disc that I know I don't need, I try to do something along those lines with them. There are plenty of people who still know that disc golf is about more than competition, though you might not find many of them on the PDGA Discussion board bragging about how many discs they won.
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Post by bruce » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:32 pm

madfrolfer wrote:
Bruce wrote:Why? When I go to the cinema, I don't expect to recieve my ticket price in merch to take home with me, I go for the pleasure of the experience. When I play pool in the pub, I play to win cos I like winning, and like the respect I get from my peers for it
That would be (should be) the difference between going out with a couple of friends, and attending a BDGA National Tour Event.

I don't mind most of the arguments, but that was pretty weak.
Why? I don't quite see why you feel you have to win something beyond a trophy to feel like you've achieved something...
The whole idea of the the TD's taking the profit isn't based on us thinking it is some ungodly sum that they do not deserve. It is the based on the fact that we would rather see that money go back to the competitors in some shape or form.
My idea is that if a TD (read: farmer or other landowner) feels like he can make a reasonable profit out of running discgolf events, he'll do his best to put on the best d@mn event he can. Market forces. Whitcombe events are generally the dearest of the year, but still super popular. Why? Great course and facilities. Hayling is very popular, despite the course being average. Why? All the extras you get are great value for money.

At the end of the day, the vast majority of sports facilities in this country are run as profit making enterprises. If we want people (councils or private) to invest in DG, it needs to appear profitable to them...

I take your point on getting baskets with the extra cash, and maybe limiting TD profits could do this. Still not convinced that lack of baskets is the reason why courses haven't been put in though. After all, Harrogate happened, UWE happened, Croydon is still going ahead. The amount of cash involved is small change to councils and schools, but huge amounts to the BDGA (anyone remember the arguments over £120ish of range finder?).
The biggest obstacle to public courses is attitudes and awareness, not cash and metalwork...

Oh, and RE: discs, all mine are in various 'club-discs' boxes, or have been donated to newbies...

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Post by discgolfer_1999 » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:50 pm

I am not even saying that the events have to be cash payment, I agree even a trophy would be nice. In my mind event that have the same players cashing all of the time, I would rather see the money go to who deserve it, then nothing at all. If there is no payout and it is announced that the money raised would be used for improvements, that would not be so bad either, but nobody has any idea on where the money goes too.

I would rather see the money go back to the players in some form or another.

I really do believe that most of the TD's make money on their events. I fully think the TD should make some money on the event, but again there are other ways to make money for the TD and promote the sport at the same time, still giving back to the individuals who played well at an event.

And as far as winning plastic that you dont need, then use it to benefit the sport. Like fernando said, carry an extra disc and give to a eyeing spectator or to a new up and coming player. But still as a new improving player, it is a great feeling to attend event and still walk away with token of achievment. If it is a disc you dont need or think it is useless, then find a use for it. Trade it with someone, a vendor or donate it to an event.

I know what the cost in the UK for merchandise and you have to be crazy to think that there is still no room for TD's to raise money from merchandise. Even with UK shipping and taxes.


People go to the movies to watch a movie, not to compete in a structured competition. I play disc golf in general because of the people and the atmosphere, I go to a tournament to compete. If all i wanted was spending time with my peers, I can do that any weekend on my home course.


I am not trying to argue or fight about this, I am just expressing my opinion about wether or not we should have a cash payout.

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Post by bruce » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:48 pm

discgolfer_1999 wrote:I really do believe that most of the TD's make money on their events. I fully think the TD should make some money on the event, but again there are other ways to make money for the TD and promote the sport at the same time, still giving back to the individuals who played well at an event.
I believe that they make some money. The last tour event in Bristol we made enough to buy a half a Skillshot...

I agree that we could be doing more to involve local communities, and to promote the sport. I know that Nige is looking to do much more of this as Director of Communications this year (no pressure Nige :wink:). And I certainly don't object to TD's raising sponsorship money! I think that, at least to start with, it should be used to improve the quality of the events (course signage being top of my wish list)
I know what the cost in the UK for merchandise and you have to be crazy to think that there is still no room for TD's to raise money from merchandise. Even with UK shipping and taxes.
Ok, I'll take your word for it. I'm still not sure how that works, is it something along the lines of your entry price is £8 higher and you get a disc that's worth £8, but the TD got it for £5 wholesale? Regardless, you have to pay £8 more...
I know that many in the PDGA consider the whole merch system to be a creation of the disc manufacturers, designed purely as a means of shifting more stock and lining their pockets...
I am not trying to argue or fight about this, I am just expressing my opinion about wether or not we should have a cash payout.
Me either, I was having a discussion* :D

* It's what the rest of the world does while you yanks polish your weapons :wink:

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Post by madfrolfer » Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:10 pm

I don't think the BDGA National Tour should be used to benefit individuals.
If a landowner wants to benefit from Disc Golf, then the course should be promoted and improved upon at thier expense in hope of attracting regular players and members.

That is what it comes down to as far as I am concerned.

I completly disagree with the idea on trying to sell disc golf based on it's profitability. Why should the BDGA be concerned with whether or not some farmer thinks he can make enough money on disc golf to open a course. I try to do that with Discology, but that is because we sell baskets and discs.

The BDGAs focus should be on trying to convince councils and parks commisions that disc golf has as much a right on public land as football fields, and tennis courts.

I think the biggest thing here is that I try to think of the BDGA as a not for profit national organisation who's purpose is to promote Disc Golf. I don't think of it as a group of people looking to install courses for their own gain. I am more interested in a 9 hole pitch and putt course on a flat piece of land that anyone can use for free, than I am if Farmer John might install a course on his awesome land that might get used twice a year.


I have no problem with pay to play courses, I just don't think that should be any of the BDGA's concern.
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Post by madfrolfer » Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:42 pm

Ok, I'll take your word for it. I'm still not sure how that works, is it something along the lines of your entry price is £8 higher and you get a disc that's worth £8, but the TD got it for £5 wholesale? Regardless, you have to pay £8 more...
Here is how it works. If say the entry fee is £10. 10 people show up, so you have £100. You give out £100 of prizes. Though you only paid £60 for it all wholesale. You make a profit of £40. It isn't that hard.

The misconception about payout in the states is that it HAS to climb higher and higher to accomodate the payouts, but that isn't true. It climbs higher and higher, because the people travelling to these events are going for the payout because they feel they have a chance of cashing. So they are willing to pay more to generate more.

We had a tour in Delaware that provided year end prizes, cash payouts at every event for the open players, and merch for the Ams. The entry fee was never higher than $15.



This was just to inform you of how the payout system works. I would like to see the payout thing be left up to the TD only so that if the TD wanted they could try to run a PDGA style event, thus preparing that TD for the British Open should they want to bid.

More than that though, I would like to see the National Tour generate money to help promote the sport.
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Post by bruce » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:13 pm

madfrolfer wrote:I completly disagree with the idea on trying to sell disc golf based on it's profitability. Why should the BDGA be concerned with whether or not some farmer thinks he can make enough money on disc golf to open a course.
OK, I think you've misunderstood me here. I don't think the BDGA should be selling discgolf based on it's profitablity, or the Tour run to benefit individuals, I just don't think prohibiting profit is wise either!
If you fix a percentage that TD's can make, and start mandating payouts, you potentially put people off running events/owning courses, or drive up prices so their margins are higher.
The BDGAs focus should be on trying to convince councils and parks commisions that disc golf has as much a right on public land as football fields, and tennis courts.
I agree. What does this have to do with payouts?
I think the biggest thing here is that I try to think of the BDGA as a not for profit national organisation who's purpose is to promote Disc Golf. I don't think of it as a group of people looking to install courses for their own gain. I am more interested in a 9 hole pitch and putt course on a flat piece of land that anyone can use for free, than I am if Farmer John might install a course on his awesome land that might get used twice a year.
Again, I totally agree. I still don't see how payouts move us closer to this.
We don't need money to help promote the sport, we need people. People who actually go out and get stuff done, like you guys have in Essex, like Richard has in Croydon.
More people playing will mean more people working at this stuff, cos lets face it, a vanishingly small percentage of people can actually be bothered to do anything about it!
More courses and more local promotion is what gets more people.
I have no problem with pay to play courses, I just don't think that should be any of the BDGA's concern.
It shouldn't be not our concern though. More courses is good, regardless of whether they're free or not.

Let me put it this way, how many free ballgolf courses do you know of? Even the rubbish, unchallenging, poorly maintained 9 hole pitch and putt on flat land near me in Queens Park charges £3 a round, and it's heaving in summer...

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Post by madfrolfer » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:01 am

I agree. What does this have to do with payouts?
So now we have to stay on topic? I've been off topic since halfway through my first post. :)
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Post by bruce » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:17 am

madfrolfer wrote:So now we have to stay on topic? I've been off topic since halfway through my first post. :)
:lol: I've been kicked off forums for this staying on topic thing before :lol:

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Post by bruce » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:32 am

Am I really the only Brit who has an opinion on this? Or just the only one with enough free time to post... :D

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Post by Tim » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:40 pm

Bruce wrote:Am I really the only Brit who has an opinion on this? Or just the only one with enough free time to post... :D
No Bruce, you are not the only Brit who has a view on this. I was going to stay quiet on this, but as you asked, i thought i'd oblige...
Bruce wrote:Yea, but there's a reasonable chance that any of those 10 could finish in the top third, and hence cash. In the UK, it's highly unlikely that any more than half the field can finish in the top third, if that. Basically, the weaker Open players will end up paying cash to the top half, and resent it.
I don't understand this argument in England whatsoever, why would the players resent other players winning something, but not resent Farmer John just taking all your money, there is no logic here Bruce. I resent seeing practically none of my money i pay to enter a tour event going back to the players.

Tim says bring it on :twisted:
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Post by bruce » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:15 pm

Tim Tom wrote:I don't understand this argument in England whatsoever, why would the players resent other players winning something, but not resent Farmer John just taking all your money, there is no logic here Bruce. I resent seeing practically none of my money i pay to enter a tour event going back to the players.

Tim says bring it on :twisted:
The point is that usually the entry fee for Pro is higher than Am, to fund the purse.

This, IMHO, will cause one of two scenarios:
a) Open players are forced to play Pro, even if they have no chance of cashing (this has happened at previous British Opens), and resent that they are basically just putting cash in Del's pocket.

Or
b) All the Open players who don't think they'll cash play Am, the Pro division becomes the same tiny handful of players, and the Am division becomes meaningless...


With no payout, fees are flat, so no resentment, unless they don't feel they got value for money out of the tournament. And frankly, where else can you go away for an entire weekend, be accommodated, fed, watered and entertained and go home with change from £100?!?

You resent seeing 'practically none' of the money going back to the players? What do you think it's spent on? Money spent on the course (hiring, maintaining, preparing etc) is going to the players, just not in the form of bits of paper...

As I previously stated, I have no problem with there being a British PDGA Tour, but I just don't think it should have anything to do with the BDGA one... We already have a Professional DGA, why would we want to make the BDGA into one?

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Post by Tim » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:43 pm

Bruce wrote:With no payout, fees are flat, so no resentment, unless they don't feel they got value for money out of the tournament. And frankly, where else can you go away for an entire weekend, be accommodated, fed, watered and entertained and go home with change from £100?!?
Bruce I can't remember going to any tournament and having change from £100, as for being fed, I would rather sort that out myself and that money going to prizes for players, I am not saying I haven't enjoyed my weekends away though.
Bruce wrote:You resent seeing 'practically none' of the money going back to the players? What do you think it's spent on? Money spent on the course (hiring, maintaining, preparing etc) is going to the players, just not in the form of bits of paper...
Utilising bold words does not make them more important :roll:

To be quite honest, with some courses I do not know where the money goes or how it is spent, but this discussion is not about TD/Course bashing, which was one of the main reasons I was refraining from posting on this issue and Scott and Fernando had pretty much already said what I think on this subject, funny that...

There are plenty of contentious points in hosting a tour event, payouts is only one of them. I believe we should have them, and perhaps change the divisions to Open, Advanced and Amateur.

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Post by bruce » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:41 pm

Tim Tom wrote:Bruce I can't remember going to any tournament and having change from £100
That's probably a reflection on the quantity of ale you drank, rather than the tourney expense though :wink:
as for being fed, I would rather sort that out myself and that money going to prizes for players, I am not saying I haven't enjoyed my weekends away though.
Personally, I'd much rather have lunches provided, I'm too lazy and disorganised to sort my own out.
Utilising bold words does not make them more important :roll:
No, but it does add intonation and emphasis into a written medium, which is what it was supposed to do, and why bold and italics were invented in the first place...
There are plenty of contentious points in hosting a tour event, payouts is only one of them. I believe we should have them, and perhaps change the divisions to Open, Advanced and Amateur.


And I don't, obviously :D
I've yet to see or hear a coherent argument that sets out what benefits a payout system will bring to the BDGA, its members, or DG in the UK in general.
As far as I can tell, all it will do is drive up prices, and put cash in the pockets of a select few!

Points raised so far:
It will force people to engage their local communities to raise sponsorship.
Payouts aren't needed to do that, it can be encouraged and done anyway.

Fixed %age for TD's, raise money for BDGA to buy baskets.
Again, doesn't need payouts. If you want to raise money, whack tourney tax up to £5 a head.

I want something for winning/doing well.
Sorry, but this is nothing more than personal greed! For every one person who gets something, two will be out of pocket (top third payout)!
We can easily mandate trophies for the top 5 in each division instead.

TDs are all money grabbing g1ts who should be hung
Ok, you didn't quite say this :wink: But don't forget that in most of the UK, we rely on the kindness of individuals donating their land for us to play on, and people putting in days of effort preparing for events, taking leave from work, cutting grass, shifting baskets.
Even though Essex is permenantly there, I know you did huge amounts of 'gardening' before the Open. Now think what has to happen at say Hayling, which doesn't have any year-round maintainence, and none of the course elements are permenant!
I reckon most TDs earn over £10 an hour in their day jobs. I seriously doubt they're making minimum wage on tourneys...

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madfrolfer
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Post by madfrolfer » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:52 pm

Just would like to mention that you obviously have not been paying too much attention to my posts Bruce. I was wondering why you rebuttles did not make much sense to me.
Fixed %age for TD's, raise money for BDGA to buy baskets.
Again, doesn't need payouts. If you want to raise money, whack tourney tax up to £5 a head
I said in my first post, that I would like to see a payout structure, but that I don't think it will work with the way the Tour is run.

Since then all my arguements have been about what we can do with the money, instead of paying it back out in the form of cash and prizes.

This is the BDGA, not the PDGA, so ammendments can be made to the whole payout structure. We don't have to just start following the PDGA model if we were to put one in place.

Also, just because you start paying out does not mean you have to raise entry fees as you suggest. The Essex Special in 2004 showed just how a payout system is run, with just about the same entry fee as all the events that did not have one. The only difference was that Open players got plastic as well as Ams, so that we wouldn't be breaking the 'no cash' payout rule on the BDGA Tour.
Frolf it up!!!!
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