Rules thread

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Steve
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Post by Steve » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:44 pm

I'm not sure about your score brackets for the Int am and Adv am groups at Croydon, Rich mate.

Have a look at last years scores: http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results? ... 1#Advanced

All my rounds last year were well above the cut off to put me in Adv ams and I only shot a 61 , 64 , 64....

14th place in adv ams was achieved by shooting 3 rounds of 65, when 24 had entered that division.

Just my 2 pence worth :)
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Post by rhatton1 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:41 am

67 last year was about 850 rated and the adv am cut off.

I think this year bottom of the adv ams will shoot under 205, so three rounds averagaing 850 will be bottom of the group, three rounds of 860 will be fighting it out for bottom and no, i'm not willing to make it interesting :lol:

The course will be playing tougher than last year so SSI might be closer to 52.5 this year so the 850 will probably be closer to 68/9 , I hadn't taken that into account in my post above.

However that means even more so that Charlie should play int. His PB of 62 was shot on a course without harsh OB around 1, no bunc'r on 2, no water on 5 or 6 etc. Its even less likely he will break his PB 3 times in tournament with hazards that he's not used too. add a shot to the score brackets I gave above for the harsher course layout and I think they will be spot on!
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Post by rhatton1 » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:04 am

Bottom of adv ams this year 200!

52.5 looks to be spot on for SSI, I thinkConors round will come down to about a 995 on final update.

Int am final needed three rounds @ 66.6 and top place was 64.3 per round

I might open a book next year....

Anyway just for clarification on a rule.

Time:

Quote:
801.03 Excessive Time:
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed
to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time
to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free
of distractions.
B. A player shall receive a warning for the
first excessive time violation if observed
by two or more players of the group or
an official. The player shall be assessed
one penalty throw for each subsequent
excessive time violation in the same
round if observed by two or more players
of the group or an official.



Does this reset to 30 seconds after each interruption.

Example.
Hole 16 Finals at Croydon. James going for his putt for OB 4. He's taken a good 20 seconds from the time he's marked his lie. He's wound up his shot, practiced the throw and is about to make the putt. Another player in the group stops him for his foot supposedly not being in line behind the mini.

James resets, winds up his putt again and makes it. The whole process has taken well over the 30 seconds total allowed for a shot.

Should this be a penalty or not?

In my opinion no. He has been interupted mid shot and focus has been destroyed, for me the 30 seconds should be reset from the point that the player is clear to throw again, giving him a fair chance to make the putt. I can't find any definite clarification on this though. The description above could be taken either way.

A similar thing could be said before a drive if a runner suddenly appears 25 seconds into the allowed time. Is the player expected to throw in 5 seconds once the coast is clear or does he get another 30 each time he/she has to stop?

Thoughts?
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Post by james » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:23 pm

rhatton1 wrote:Does this reset to 30 seconds after each interruption.
Thoughts?
My general thought at the time was that i was able to re-focus and to line up the putt again, i have seen it done when someone has been distracted by for example a cheer after a long putt on another hole. My general assumption is that if a player is interrupted at any point during a putt or drive the 30 seconds resets itself.
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Post by bruce » Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:53 pm

PDGA Rules School, for those who haven't seen it...

http://www.pdga.com/mandatories

They did one on OB previously, but I can't find with a cursory look
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Post by rhatton1 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:05 pm

I've got one that I encountered at QP the other week.

Hole 12

My second shot overshot the basket and landed up under the big hedge at the top - beyond which is OB. There was no way I could get behind it to play a shot - unplayable lie, I couldn't move away from the basket as it took me OB. Do i need to go back to where I took my last shot from with a stroke penalty then?
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Post by bruce » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:29 pm

rhatton1 wrote:I've got one that I encountered at QP the other week.

Hole 12

My second shot overshot the basket and landed up under the big hedge at the top - beyond which is OB. There was no way I could get behind it to play a shot - unplayable lie, I couldn't move away from the basket as it took me OB. Do i need to go back to where I took my last shot from with a stroke penalty then?
Yep: http://tinyurl.com/3aebear
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Re: Rules thread

Post by bruce » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:30 pm

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Update on OB/Mando/rethrow - follow-up from QP this weekend

Post by BOF » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:04 pm

Further to my question about taking rethrows or going to DropZones, I have had this clarified from PDGA Rules Discussion thread and response from PDGA rules committee:

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=35282

If you can't get there, here is a summary:

The TD can only prevent a player from using the Optional Rethrow (such as forcing a player to mark their lie at the designated Drop Zone upon going OB) if they get a waiver from PDGA HQ.

So, there you have it.

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Re: Update on OB/Mando/rethrow - follow-up from QP this week

Post by Jester » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:11 pm

So in practical terms this would mean at Burnlaw for example (where there are 4 holes that have in the past forced players to go to the drop zone if they go OB on their tee shot) the player will now have the option to re-tee as well?

BOF wrote:Further to my question about taking rethrows or going to DropZones, I have had this clarified from PDGA Rules Discussion thread and response from PDGA rules committee:

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=35282

If you can't get there, here is a summary:

The TD can only prevent a player from using the Optional Rethrow (such as forcing a player to mark their lie at the designated Drop Zone upon going OB) if they get a waiver from PDGA HQ.

So, there you have it.

BOF


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PS See here for further info on this topic - http://www.pdga.com/rule-changes-2011
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Re: Rules thread

Post by BOF » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:33 pm

That's exactly how I read it, Jester.
The TD (is it Garry?) will need to contact PDGA HQ to be granted permission to enforce the dropzone on those holes.
Interestingly, having canvassed opinion on this at QP I received a range of answers from a range of 'senior' players.
I think that this needs to be clarified ASAP with players and TDs, otherwise we may have confusion out on the course and TDs possibly being upset that their course is being played incorrectly.
I encountered this at the new '6-to-7' hole at QP. Having hit the taller trees just over the hedge and been snagged and landed short of the river, I considered re-teeing in the belief that the re-throw was always an option. Eventually I took the dropzone since I felt that this was both the prudent and less contentious option.

Quoting from the Rule Changes on PDGA site: http://www.pdga.com/rule-changes-2011
Essentially, the Optional Rethrow means players may rethrow from their original lie if their disc lands in any of the disc golf penalty hazards – OB, Missed Mando, above 2m and Lost (which already is handled this way) – and receive a 1-throw penalty. Of course just like the old Unplayable Lie rule, a player may choose this Optional Rethrow penalty without permission from the group no matter where their disc lands whether inbounds or a hazard location.
So, no more 'obligatory' dropzones for OB and Missed Mando - this applies to QP #1, QP #5 (new = old 6-to-7), QP #10 (2nd new 'woodland adventure'), QP #15.

Can't recall all the Burnlaw ones right now...

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Re: Rules thread

Post by Jester » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:10 am

BOF wrote:Can't recall all the Burnlaw ones right now...
Holes 5 Pig Pen, 7 The Elbow, 8 The Plantation and (formerly) 16 The Orchard.

IMHO I can't see any reason for Garry or any other TD contacting the PDGA about this rule change. In the case of the Burnlaw holes, if a player wishes to re-tee rather than dropzoning then I say let them go for it! There may be a perceived benefit doing this on 7 and 8 as those are tricky DZs, but I think it highly unlikely re-teeing will give the player a greater chance of getting the up and down 4 than the DZ will.

Big thought.
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Re: Rules thread

Post by bruce » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:51 am

Agreed in those cases, but actually on hole 5 at QP (old 6 to 7) there is a definite case for a re-tee having advantage over the drop zone, and you may well want to restrict that option for design reasons. Why the RC have seen fit to weaken the TDs powers like this I have no idea.

The RC have frustrated me recently with a string of inconsistent and illogical rulings, so much so that I applied for a role on the committee back in October, but I've heard nothing from them.

My take on this would have been that you can only take an optional rethrow once you actually have a lie. In the cases of OB and mando misses you do not have a lie until you have marked according to the rules, so at the designated dropzone, 1m from the OB line, within 4m from the mando, or wherever the TD has specified, as appropriate from the situation. You're playing 3 from there. If you don't like that option, then feel free to declare your rethrow, but you'll have to add 1 more to your score and play 4 from the tee or previous lie.

This would have been consistent and in line with previous good rulings on order of events, i.e. mando supersedes OB etc.
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Re: Rules thread

Post by LostMeow » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:32 am

bruce wrote:My take on this would have been that you can only take an optional rethrow once you actually have a lie. In the cases of OB and mando misses you do not have a lie until you have marked according to the rules, so at the designated dropzone, 1m from the OB line, within 4m from the mando, or wherever the TD has specified, as appropriate from the situation. You're playing 3 from there. If you don't like that option, then feel free to declare your rethrow, but you'll have to add 1 more to your score and play 4 from the tee or previous lie.
With all due respect, I think this line:

"Essentially, the Optional Rethrow means players may rethrow from their original lie if their disc lands in any of the disc golf penalty hazards – OB, Missed Mando, above 2m and Lost (which already is handled this way) – and receive a 1-throw penalty."

Makes it pretty clear that it is just a normal -1 penalty, so a re-tee would be the third shot. Your caveat of "you can only take an optional rethrow once you actually have a lie" is not mentioned explicitly or implicitly in what the PDGA have said on their page.

In fact, with a lost disc, you don't have a lie, so if, following what you've said above, you can only rethrow once you have a lie it would be impossible to continue your round!
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Re: Rules thread

Post by bruce » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:58 am

LostMeow wrote:
bruce wrote:My take on this would have been that you can only take an optional rethrow once you actually have a lie. In the cases of OB and mando misses you do not have a lie until you have marked according to the rules, so at the designated dropzone, 1m from the OB line, within 4m from the mando, or wherever the TD has specified, as appropriate from the situation. You're playing 3 from there. If you don't like that option, then feel free to declare your rethrow, but you'll have to add 1 more to your score and play 4 from the tee or previous lie.
With all due respect, I think this line:

"Essentially, the Optional Rethrow means players may rethrow from their original lie if their disc lands in any of the disc golf penalty hazards – OB, Missed Mando, above 2m and Lost (which already is handled this way) – and receive a 1-throw penalty."

Makes it pretty clear that it is just a normal -1 penalty, so a re-tee would be the third shot. Your caveat of "you can only take an optional rethrow once you actually have a lie" is not mentioned explicitly or implicitly in what the PDGA have said on their page.

In fact, with a lost disc, you don't have a lie, so if, following what you've said above, you can only rethrow once you have a lie it would be impossible to continue your round!
I don't disagree that this is their intent, but what is written in a 'rules school' on the PDGA page is not what is written in the rule book. As many others have pointed out on the PDGA forum, when you're on the course you only have the book, not access to the Q&A and rules schools articles, so it behoves the RC to write a logically consistent rule book, and where they are ruling on how to interpret it, they need to consider that in my view.

Your example of a lost disc is incorrect, the rules tell you how to mark your lie in the case that you have lost it. Which is stroke and distance, the same as the rethrow in any case, so no difference.

Maybe I'm off base with the shooting 4 thing, but I definitely think the TD should have the flexibility to mandate an outcome if you miss a mando or go OB off the tee, it's a course design matter to me, not a rules thing
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Re: Rules thread

Post by LostMeow » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:25 am

bruce wrote:Your example of a lost disc is incorrect, the rules tell you how to mark your lie in the case that you have lost it. Which is stroke and distance, the same as the rethrow in any case, so no difference.
Fair enough. It was a silly example anyway. It's not as if you have an 'optional' rethrow from a lost disc! And the 'lie' is already marked. Off the point slightly, I hear this phrase "stroke and distance" fairly often, and have no idea what it means...?

It's a shame if the PDGA haven't written their rule book properly. However, as a regular marker of exams, I know that no matter how specific a rule/criterion seems to be, there will always end up being an exception. In such cases, an appreciation of the rationale behind the rule/criterion is essential, and that's where 'rules forums' (or equiv.) are important. And things like this thread.

This might be blasphemy, but as far as I'm concerned the TD should have absolute power to decide the rules on their course, as long as they explain them properly. To put it pragmatically, the PDGA may say they require TDs to ask for 'special permission', but how are they ever going to know if you don't?
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Re: Rules thread

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:38 am

Stroke and distance is a cross over from ball golf where if you go out of bounds or lose a ball the punishment is a return to your previous lie + a 1 stroke penalty. So in effect any OB from a tee shot and you're three off the tee. Its very harsh and this was enforced and USDGC last year, leading to a very good first round from mr straight and steady Robins when all the big guns were scattering shots OB 50 meters further than he could throw.
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Re: Rules thread

Post by bruce » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:01 pm

LostMeow wrote:Fair enough. It was a silly example anyway. It's not as if you have an 'optional' rethrow from a lost disc! And the 'lie' is already marked. Off the point slightly, I hear this phrase "stroke and distance" fairly often, and have no idea what it means...?

It's a shame if the PDGA haven't written their rule book properly. However, as a regular marker of exams, I know that no matter how specific a rule/criterion seems to be, there will always end up being an exception. In such cases, an appreciation of the rationale behind the rule/criterion is essential, and that's where 'rules forums' (or equiv.) are important. And things like this thread.

This might be blasphemy, but as far as I'm concerned the TD should have absolute power to decide the rules on their course, as long as they explain them properly. To put it pragmatically, the PDGA may say they require TDs to ask for 'special permission', but how are they ever going to know if you don't?
Stroke and Distance basically means 'add one to your score and play from your previous lie". In ball golf most penalties are S&D, but in DG we have the other options, such as 1m perpendicular to last in bounds.

I feel the RC more and more frequently make a rod for their own backs by interpreting the rules in unenforceable ways, see this thread, posts from 60 or so onward to show my thoughts on the new casual obstacle rules and how the RC eventually fell on it, just bizarre in my view: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthre ... 790&page=2

Back on topic, I think they could have easily solved this by putting the rethrow in the order:
Mando supersedes OB supersedes Lost supersedes Optional Rethrow supersedes 2m

This would have retained the TDs design options and met all their other stated goals in the rules school article
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Re: Rules thread

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:05 pm

Oh my.

help me out here.

If i'm in the woods and my marker is placed on a dead branch, one foot of which is behind my marker so affecting my stance, the rest of it is all in front of the line of play, this big dead branch is blocking my entire route to the hole but I am allowed to move it because 1 foot is behind my marker and potentially creating unsafe footing - is this correct.

Would the same go for the roles of fencing down on hole 10 at QP or would it only apply to organic materials?

thats how I'm understanding your first post # 70 and for me that goes completely outside the spirit of the game.
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Re: Rules thread

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:20 pm

Also how are we supposed to make use of Q&A's in respect to the rules whilst out on the course and the second you pull out an Iphone/android or similar you get a two shot penalty for potentially using a measurement device.... :roll:

The rule book does seem a little wide open to interpretation - they really do need a TD's or local rules committee discretion trumps all clause in there.
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