Rules thread

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Re: Rules thread

Post by Jester » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:31 am

I should add that TD Matt did his best to solve the issue. When he realised the Landy had parked up he chased after the owner who'd jumped in another car with the local farmer and driven off! We couldn't see Matt scurring accross the Mendips shouting at the other car, but I wish we had been able to... :)
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Re: Rules thread

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:40 pm

A thread has just popped up on DGCR - http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/sh ... p?t=112818

this is very relevant to us at QP as the situation occurs regularly on hole 12. I thought I knew the answer but the responses on the thread don't seem to chime with what I thought.

Clarification please - should you move it, shouldn't you move it, when should you, when shouldn't you?
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Re: Rules thread

Post by BaggerBlakehill » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:47 pm

Have to say, reading through this thread from years back is quite interesting and while I can see Hatton is looking for an answer to his question around discs hitting bags (which I'm also quite interested in knowing the right answer too), I was wondering if someone can answer a question I have about a 'lie'.

So a thrown disc hits a tree that straddles an OB line and hangs in the branches on the inbounds side. While waiting for other players to take their throws and walking to the tree, the disc has dropped out of the tree and bounced into the OB. Is this disc OB or do I take an approximate lie from where I believe the disc to have been hanging in the tree?

The reason I ask is that part E of 802.02 states "If the thrown disc has moved after it first came to rest on the in-bounds playing surface, it shall be replaced to its approximate position" and part C states "If the disc first comes to rest above or below the playing surface, its position is on the playing surface directly below or above the disc". These along with part B, which states "A disc is considered to be at rest once it is no longer moving as a result of the momentum imparted by the throw. A disc in water or foliage is considered to be at rest once it is moving only as a result of movement of the water, the foliage, or the wind", seems to suggest to me at least that the lie should be replaced in the approximate position, right?


And if I am right about that part, it brings me onto a slightly more contentious question of how long does a disc have to be suspended by a branch before it can be considered "no-longer moving as a result of the momentum imparted by the thrower"?

Thanks
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Re: Rules thread

Post by bruce » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:21 pm

rhatton1 wrote:A thread has just popped up on DGCR - http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/sh ... p?t=112818

this is very relevant to us at QP as the situation occurs regularly on hole 12. I thought I knew the answer but the responses on the thread don't seem to chime with what I thought.

Clarification please - should you move it, shouldn't you move it, when should you, when shouldn't you?
I agree with "JC17393"'s interpretation. So did the rules committee when I enquired a similar case many years ago before I joined said committee.

Nick, your interpretation is correct. It's a judgement call as to when the disc has become stationary.
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Re: Rules thread

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:03 pm

BaggerBlakehill wrote:

And if I am right about that part, it brings me onto a slightly more contentious question of how long does a disc have to be suspended by a branch before it can be considered "no-longer moving as a result of the momentum imparted by the thrower"?

Thanks
Or same question for Dels putt that hung in the wind in the chains in Mull a few years ago for about 30 seconds - when is it considered at rest? Could he retrieve it and count it as holed out before it dropped as it was supported by the chain assembly although effectively the flight was still in progress? (I think it counts as holed out)
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Re: Rules thread

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:07 pm

bruce wrote:
I agree with "JC17393"'s interpretation. So did the rules committee when I enquired a similar case many years ago before I joined said committee.
That was also my interpretation - although I am sure there was a contentious issue on tour a few years ago where someone was asked to move their bag, had ample time too before the disc rolled into it, refused to do so and was penalised for it.

Was a penalty correct in this instance and what was the penalty for? Courtesy or inteference? (or did this actually happen as I described it)
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Re: Rules thread

Post by bruce » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:16 pm

rhatton1 wrote:That was also my interpretation - although I am sure there was a contentious issue on tour a few years ago where someone was asked to move their bag, had ample time too before the disc rolled into it, refused to do so and was penalised for it.

Was a penalty correct in this instance and what was the penalty for? Courtesy or inteference? (or did this actually happen as I described it)
Yes, that was the case I clarified with them. It was his own disc rolling. It was an interference ruling, based on 804.03 F: Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with a disc in play may occur.

I didn't read the whole thread you posted, but did anyone point this out? My view is (& was) that not moving it if you can would constitute interference, and the RC at the time confirmed my view.
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Re: Rules thread

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:20 pm

it's sort of been danced around without being accurately argued - reason I asked was that Chuck was arguing a very different scenario from how I would call it and Chuck tends to be right in most instances - this didn't sound right though!

I would, if a player had ample time to move a bag and had been asked to do so, penalise them for interference if they refused/made no effort (benefit of the doubt if it took them by surprise) so glad I was right on this one :)
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Re: Rules thread

Post by Jester » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:28 pm

Yep, it happened pretty much as you described it, Hatton. I know because it was me that called it.

Player took and uphill putt from about 15yards and it lipped out. It rolled slowly backwards towards him and his bag, which was by his feet where he'd placed it before taking his putt. The disc was rolling slowly enough for me to recognise the bag was in danger of being hit by the rolling disc and yell 'Bag' as a warning to move it. The player, watching the disc, stayed motionless so I yelled 'Bag' again. Still he didn't move his bag and after another second or two the disc rolled into his bag stopping it dead and leaving a considerably shorter putt than had it been allowed to continue rolling down the hill.

Certainly not the behaviour we'd expect. At best naïve behaviour, at worst deliberate inaction to attempt to improve his lie.
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Re: Rules thread

Post by BaggerBlakehill » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:54 pm

bruce wrote:Nick, your interpretation is correct. It's a judgement call as to when the disc has become stationary.
Thanks for confirming Bruce :)
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Re: Rules thread

Post by Scuttler » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:33 am

Jester wrote:Yep, it happened pretty much as you described it, Hatton. I know because it was me that called it.
Bud at Oxford quite a few years back? Or has it happened again since then?

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Re: Rules thread

Post by seamus » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:18 am

So let me clarify three situations and their results,
1. I'm playing Hole 16 (Nipple) at QP with the three Stooges, my drive lands 2 meters south of the basket. I mark my lie and just miss the putt which rolls 2 meters North of the Basket. I think its a gimme so I leave my disc bag in the area of my last putt walk to the other side of the basket, mark my lie and miss the putt again. My putter catches edge and rolls directly into my bag, I mark my lie where the disc came to rest and putt out for the 4.

2. I'm playing Hole 16 (Nipple) at QP with the three Stooges, my drive lands 2 meters south of the basket. I mark my lie and just miss the putt which rolls 2 meters North of the Basket. I think its a gimme so I leave my disc bag in the area of my last putt walk to the other side of the basket, Moe speaks up and says "watch your bag, could be interference if you disc hits it", I mark my lie and miss the putt again. My putter catches edge and rolls directly into my bag, I mark my lie where the disc came to rest and putt out for the 4 +1 for interference =5.

3. I'm playing Hole 16 (Nipple) at QP with the three Stooges, my drive lands 2 meters south of the basket. I mark my lie and just miss the putt which rolls 2 meters North of the Basket. I think its a gimme so I leave my disc bag in the area of my last putt walk to the other side of the basket, Moe speaks up and says "watch your bag, could be interference if you disc hits it", I mark my lie and miss the putt again. My putter catches edge, Shemp yells to Curly to get my bag out of the way, he subsequently stumbles and the disc strikes his foot stopping it, I mark my lie where the disc came to rest and putt out for the 4. Curly +1 for interference.

The possibility of interference needs to be called before the disc is in flight or the bag is treated as a temporary object like a branch or a stone. No?
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Re: Rules thread

Post by LostMeow » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:47 am

Great examples there, Seamus. It's so unclear! I'd add the following possibilities:

4. You land 2m short of the basket. As you approach your disc, you leave your bag 2m behind your lie. Step up to putt, disc rolls back behind you and hits your bag. (I include this as an example of responsible placing of one's bag)

5. You land 2m short of the basket. As you approach your disc, you leave your bag 2m behind your lie and off to the side, where a couple of players are standing. Step up to putt, disc rolls and hits the bag. Players have not moved.

6. You land 2m short of the basket. As you approach your disc, you leave your bag 2m behind your lie and off to the side, where a couple of players are standing. Step up to putt, disc rolls, you shout to players to move your bag. They react too slowly; disc hits bag.

7. You land 2m short of the basket. As you approach your disc, you leave your bag 2m behind your lie and off to the side, where a couple of players are standing. Step up to putt, disc rolls, you shout to players to move your bag, they do but disc hits one of them in the process.

...

With 804.03.F, "A player may require other players to move themselves or their equipment* if either could interfere with the throw. Refusal to do so is a courtesy violation." - i.e. If other players think the bag could interfere with the throw, they would have to ask for it to be moved before the throw. If the bag was not moved it would be a courtesy violation - warning first, then +1 on proceeding offences?

The same rule says "players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with a disc in play may occur" - but does not say what the penalty is if they do. Indeed, given you don't know where a disc might go in play, simply standing anywhere, or putting a bag down anywhere on a course is violating this rule!

*EDIT: I meant to add that this is grammatically unclear but seems to be meaning 'the equipment belonging to the "other players"', rather than the equipment belonging to the "a player" (the subject). i.e. it does not mean that Player 1 (throwing) could/should expect Player 2 to move Player 1's equipment.
Last edited by LostMeow on Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rules thread

Post by BaggerBlakehill » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:03 pm

So just my opinion on this one... Firstly l, the rules only ever seem to imply interference bring caused by another players equipment and not the thrower themselves so theres a big grey area there to start with. Secondly though, and for me this is biggest part, the rule clearly states interference is an intentional action. With this in mind, in Seamus's example where he leaves his bag behind after his first throw and therefore doesn't have time to move it before the discs hits it, I wouldn't support a penalty because there's no intent and no option for him to move it.

If however the throw was on say hole 12 at QP where the disc often rolls right back at you, if the thrower allowed a disc to hit their own bag which is within easy reach and they make no effort to do so, then I'd definitely support a penalty being given as they've allowed it to happen.

Its the lack of intent in most of these examples that in my mind says 'no penalty'
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Re: Rules thread

Post by bruce » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:51 pm

Nick has highlighted the key thing that makes the previous examples easier to rule on, intent. Now as a general rule we have tried never to include intent in any rule, as it implies having some knowledge of, unsurprisingly, the player's intentions, which is tricky. In this case however it's necessary in order to distinguish it from accidental interference.

We *could* avoid this by one of two mechanisms, either a blanket 'no penalties for interference' (and chaos reins), or all interference incurs a penalty. The second route is against most player's sense of fairness, I can only imagine the indignity of being hit in the back of the head and incurring a penalty for your trouble!

I have highlighted this rule as one for rework in the planned 2016 update, both for clarity on being able to (nay obliged to if possible) move equipment/players out of the way of a disc in motion, but also to consider including some sanction for accidental interference caused by leaving equipment where interference could easily occur (although this would again be a judgement call)
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Re: Rules thread

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:12 am

Glad this has been further discussed - I went to bed last night thinking about it and had many of the same questions as above regarding intent/vs unintentional interference.

Glad you are taking this up with the rules committee as it seems far to open to interpretation still.

Good luck on trying to find wording on this that plays into peoples natural ideas of fairplay but also gives an easily interpretable ruling for all possible situations. I can't even begin to think of one!!
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Re: Rules thread

Post by Jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:33 am

rhatton1 wrote: Glad you are taking this up with the rules committee as it seems far to open to interpretation still.

Good luck on trying to find wording on this that plays into peoples natural ideas of fairplay but also gives an easily interpretable ruling for all possible situations. I can't even begin to think of one!!
Seconded.

A different scenario involving interference from spectators was witnessed in the final of the European Championships a few years ago in France.

The Final group was on a hole that played through a gap downhill to a blind green. Off the fairway on both sides and back of the green was OB. During regulation most players laid up at the gap to make the basket visible and approached from there (many still skipped OB off the small green). The first two finalists laid up at the gap, but the third decided to go for it and go for the blind green. He didn’t even hit the fairway but went straight OB off the side, his disc striking a spectator who was just standing behind the OB line and the disc bounced back in bounds. There was consternation and the spectators shuffled back away from the OB and looked to see if the 4th and final player would attack the green. He did, and because the spectators were now aware he went OB when everyone moved out of the way of his disc. Outcome was the third player continued from his in-bounds lie with no penalty, making up a shot he should not have gotten on the fourth player who went OB.

The issue here was not with the players but with the organisation of spectators. Firstly the were allowed to spectate in an area that was likely to cause interference, and secondly they were not alerted to the incoming third throw until it was too late.

It might be impossible to write a rule that treats all players fairly in this scenario, and if so it should be stipulated to TDs the onus falls on them to marshal spectators out of areas where it’s likely they could become a factor. No one would want to see a tournament settled on such an incident.
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Re: Rules thread

Post by BaggerBlakehill » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:10 pm

While I too agree that tightening up of the wording to ensure that intent is the key element of the interference rule is crucial, I feel that situations such as Jester has pointed out are sometimes unavoidable. Yes it's a cr@ppy way for someone to drop/pick up shots but that's life. How many times have to you seen 2 drives from the tee hit a tree in almost exactly the same place but for one disc to land fairly ok but the other to fly way off into the bushes, take an edge and roll even further into a practically unplayable lie? That's life and guess what, it's not always fair.

In fact, because the disc never got to finish its full flight in Jester's example, who's to say that it might not have found some bizarre yet legal way to finish in bounds anyway? The thing is, and I use this saying a lot in snooker when I or the other player makes a fluke pot, what goes around comes around and for every bit of "bad luck" someone gets, you can be sure they'll get a piece of "good luck" sometime after that will make up for it.

In terms of a ruling for this particular scenario, again there's no obvious intent to cause interference and as it was a non-player who caused the interference, what possible action is there but to play it as is.
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New Question - carrying a bag

Post by BOF » Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 pm

Can a player be carrying their bag when they play a shot in tournament play? Either using the shoulder straps/handle or holding it their hand, it doesn't matter how.

I was just out putting and realised that, to save time, I was always holding my bag in my left hand when putting. The bag acted as a counterweight and reduced the risk of a falling putt - allowing a little more force to be used in the shot.

Was I gaining an illegal advantage in doing so?

Must a player always put their bag down when taking their shot?

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Re: Rules thread

Post by bruce » Sun May 10, 2015 8:20 am

There are no rules regarding holding your bag while playing a shot
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