Hole Design

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Tim
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Hole Design

Post by Tim » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:11 am

This is always a subject that fires players up, what is a good design for a hole, is it something that plays to your skill level or that challenges you, or a hole that when you stand on the tee, you just want to throw all your discs at it for the fun of it, what are your thoughts, let me know what hole you like, which course and why?

Should a course be designed around a few very well designed holes or should a course be designed to make best use of the available landscape.

Shoot

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Re: Hole Design

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:05 am

oooph, tough question Tim!

At most courses there will be some landmark that you just have to use, whether its off the top of a hill, firing across a lake or navigating a tight S find your signature hole and work around it, this will be the hole you want to empty the bag at, this is the hole that people will remember when they leave the course.

There has to be good flow between holes sometimes to the sacrifice of a good hole as it just doesn't fit into the overall course

ideally holes will be challenging without having to lay down artificial ropes or things that change the course from the way it is played in normal play to how it is played in tournaments.

There should be a balance between left and right handed holes, tight technical holes and open wang them holes, if the course allows it's also nice to have some baskets tucked away in tight greens and others out in the open to be affected by wind and to make distance control trickier on approaches . Personally for me I would always like to see some semblance of control required on the shot, I really like holes that narrow the further you throw giving you the good old risk reward of an easy short shot but a difficult birdie chance or a risky controlled longer shot which if it comes off can give you a shot on the opponents, Croydons new hole 7? is a good example of this (the one that crosses the diagonal path on the back field.)

Favourite holes for me:

Hole 5 Essex, gotta love it, only played it once 5 years ago and lost a disc, desperate to play again and clear that water. Like it that it isn't just about clearing the water, you also have to find a way to the basket after getting across.
Hole 4 Essex - I love short drop off holes to danger behind, Croydons new hole 8 is similar, great test of ability and risk reward - you know you should two it but do you have the stones?

Whitcombe
Megabunny - oh my god. i dream about that hole. I once threw a disc 200 meters. it was there. wow. Better for me than Hypotenuse, the contours of the land are just perfect, should be played on every round!
Goolagong. - Again a relatively easy hole similar to hole 4 Essex to reach but so much danger, these short down hillers are brilliant tests of control and nerve, especially when your favourite disc would be the best for the job, but will you throw it.....
Watery Grave/Gate (I think) Great testing par 4, you have to think about the best placement of your big drive into an open field in order to have a good line to a tricky basket position. Seemed so easy to find the water when you never should have done. One of those holes that you beat yourself on. Do you lay up for the 4 or attack for the 3?

Burnlaw
Hole 18 - Great hole - different lines to attack, big Hyzer huge (power and control) anhyzer or low line under the trees, wind direction changes your thoughts of the tee every time. Easy safe ways to play for a 4 as well. brilliantly thought out hole.
Hole 12 - Drop off the corner - easily aceable, easily 4 able another good drop off hole that begs you to have run but so often cruelly hurts you.
Hole 1 - So simple a concept, OB 70 - 75 meters away, will your drive carry the wall? Or are you happy to settle for 3?
Hole 5 - should be so easy. Never is. So many ways to get it wrong by trying a bit too much, we could all probably throw a putter/mid safely into the field, yet you want to get the driver down there and you make your own downfall.

Croydon
New hole 4 - lots of choices as to what to do off the tee, then on second shot as well, makes you think.
hole 7 as mentioned above
squeaky bum, great test of controlled power.
Old 18 new 3 - Lovely use of contours of the land to make a hole I just want to keep throwing at.

QP
Black course 6 (extended old 8) If I wasn't scared about losing discs I would want to empty my whole bag at this stunning hole. Every time I stand up there to enjoy the beautiful view it makes me happy! So 2able, but you have to be brave! Safe routes to play it as well.
Hole 8 - old hole 10 - a great test of a controlled straight shot, it asks for the thrower to have a certain skill and to implement it well - acing it is an awesome feeling!
Hole 9 Black course - oh my word, what a beautifully crafted hole - there is still work to be done on the first bit to the ride, but you can't help but be awed standing at the ride staring down the narrowing "fairway" to the beautifully framed basket, it gets me every time. As the trees grow more and the canopy rises this hole will just get better and better. I love it, 2able, 3able, 4 able, 8 able, you beat yourself here. Work out what you're capable of and go for it. i've seen just about every range of shots off the tee here as people try (and often fail) to master it.
Hole 15 -lovely tough hole asking for height control coupled with distance, drop off of the back - i'm looking forward to the mando going when the trees mature a little more.

Ashton Court
The big long down the hill one with the path by the side - great hole, a chance to wang it but you must keep it tight with OB right and left. want to empty my bag.
Hole 9? Round the shoulder of land - incredibly tough hole that should be so easy to 4, as soon as you go for the three you make your own trouble. Great use of the contours of the land
The one that plays over the pond, good risk reward hole.


Holes I don't like - any that are too reliant on luck - Whitcombe hole that plays across the steep slope, however you throw the disc here it can hit a mound tip and roll 80 meters away to the bottom of the hill. Just feels too much of a lottery.
Hole 13 QP. Similar problem, so easy for things to tip and roll away from a good throw. I can control the disc in the air but I can do nothing about it when it touches the ground (amount of spin aside)

Holes that change too much from normal play to competition play - croydons hole 5 - good hole as it is, destroys home advantage by changing it dramatically, suddenly it is a very different hole to the one normally played.
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Re: Hole Design

Post by Tim » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Nice and comprehensive, with a leaning towards skill and not luck on holes, thanks for adding what isn't liked, i'm surprised you missed off Hypotoneuse(sic) though!!!

Keep them coming

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Re: Hole Design

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:16 pm

I was looking at it as a choice between hypoteneuse and Mega bunny and Mega bunny gets it for me, the hole just feels amazing as you stand at the top.
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Re: Hole Design

Post by bruce » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:35 pm

Anyone doing or thinking about course design should read John Houck's articles, in particular "From a thousand holes to 18": http://www.houckdesign.com/thousand.html

John is widely considered to be the best course designer in the world and the PDGA chose him to be head designer at the International Disc Golf Center in Augusta. His advice on avoiding the 'join the dots' style of design is very good advice indeed.

My view is you need to have balance whilst making sure you have some signature holes and make best use of the land you have. Every course should have at least one 'empty the bag' hole, or like the lake/Goolagong, one that you'd like to if money was no object! It's hard for me to say what makes a good hole without thinking in terms of how a hole fits into a course, but generally speaking I want some choices off the tee (anhyzer/straight/hyzer, go for it/lay up etc), a 'fair' fairway, and an interesting green.

Course redesigns are a tricky beast as it can often just be tweaking what you already have. It is possible to rethink completely, for example when Jester and I redesigned Burnlaw we reversed the direction of the top field, Badgers used to play from the road end, the next was more or less 3 backwards, then from tee of 3 down to basket of 2, then up the hill to basket of 1, followed by 5.

One of the great things about Essex is that it's a long course and we don't have enough of that. My feeling is that in the UK we are generally skewed against longer throwers as the majority of holes are in reach of at least half the Int Am division. That in turn does little to encourage players to work on distance, with the result that the Europeans can all out throw us by a mile.
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Re: Hole Design

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:45 pm

I think Rich's summary is all very valid, though your always going to hear differing opinions.

Personally im less concerned by flow and would rather walk for 5mins if it means playing better holes and not having a "filler".

Im also a fan of holes that allow multiple ways of playing the hole, be that backhand lines, sidearm lines, overhead lines, rather than one forced shot.

Contrary to Rich though i think It would be detrimental to the wider course to focus on one or two signature holes, if there were good holes that couldnt be factored in.

Phil

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Re: Hole Design

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:53 pm

bruce wrote:Anyone doing or thinking about course design should read John Houck's articles, in particular "From a thousand holes to 18": http://www.houckdesign.com/thousand.html

John is widely considered to be the best course designer in the world and the PDGA chose him to be head designer at the International Disc Golf Center in Augusta. His advice on avoiding the 'join the dots' style of design is very good advice indeed.
Not sure if its John Houck, but there is also an interesting podcast on disc golf radio (search through itunes) with a pro course designer that worth listening to.

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Re: Hole Design

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:09 pm

one other thing I would say is don;t go for distance everytime just because you can. Sometimes a challenging 80 meter hole is more fun than a 180 meter fairly boring 2 drive par 4. Especially on higher par holes always make sure there is a thought about where the first disc needs to be for the second shot
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Re: Hole Design

Post by ChrisOBrien » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:11 pm

In my opinion it's about gathering all the relevant information from all stakeholders to identify all the parameters of the site and the needs of the users (evolving) needs. This is before the hole design is even considered, tempting though it is. Then identify the site from all angles, identifying unique features and incorporating them as much as possible. Providing there are enough interesting holes, flow generally trumps the approach of signature hole after signature hole with relatively long walks between - but each situation is unique of course - no-one likes a boring filler hole.

So it's like the 'white hat' thinking hat (Edward De Bono) - first gather all the information, pure facts, get really deep into the game about the project and the possible hole layouts. Lay it out there to be pondered and clearly understood, and then the solution presents itself when all the boxes are ticked for all stakeholders and design goals.

There's temptation to get too emotionally attached to hole designing - the excitement is an important part of it, but decisions need to come from another place. The way I see it, if a site is viable, then there is an optimum design solution there to be found, then it's the design team's job to be thorough, open minded and creative to find it.

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Re: Hole Design

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:27 pm

Phil Wood wrote:
Personally im less concerned by flow and would rather walk for 5mins if it means playing better holes and not having a "filler".

l
The one thing to bear in mind here is whether you're looking to create courses just for locals who know it or for a wider audience playing by themselves for the first time, as it has to be easy for them to find their way from one hole to the next - we have enough trouble with the short course at QP getting people from hole 4 to hole 14 A, that's what I mean by flow, the course should fairly obviously link from one hole to another if it is to be played by all comers.
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Re: Hole Design

Post by rhatton1 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:36 pm

ChrisOBrien wrote:
There's temptation to get too emotionally attached to hole designing -
This is also very true.

I had worked out a little course in Bedworth, and there was one grove of trees that for me just had to be incorporated somehow. so I thought a hole would work there in a certain way, Bruce first time round got to the truth of it though, whilst the hole looked very pretty it was very easy as you could just hyzer round the back each time, without putting stupidly tough mandatories on it wasn;t really a viable hole. I had an emotional attachment to it though as the first time I saw it framing a traveller it just looked so perfect. But on thinking about it again, swtiching the hole round the other way and dropping the hole in to the course later - dropping from hole 4 to hole 7 would make for just as good flow and make for a better hole and general course.

Has taken me around 3 months to agree he was probably right though as it had previously been one of my favourite to look at on the course :) (and only this morning really worked out how it could play.)
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Re: Hole Design

Post by Phil Wood » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:37 pm

We're heading into new territory hear Tim's OP was hole design, so should be kept on topic.

but to answer breifly course design is a very different beast to hole design, i agree flow is a massive factor to consider and signage/paths etc need to be there to ensure there is no confusion. My feeeling is though the next tee doesnt necessary need to be beside the basket you have jsut holed out on.

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Re: Hole Design

Post by Neil M » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:00 pm

Some great stuff on Houck's site. Just read all the articles and it's given me lots of food for thought when we go out to herstmonceux next to carry on hole designing. One of the problems with hole designing I have found is having enough space to really have true options. Often we are scrabbling around trying to fit holes in where we can. This has certainly been the case with our 2 Eastbourne courses and because of this often you don't get multiple choices off the tee which does have its benefits in that you have to design the course to offer as big a variety of shots/challenge as possible. It has been interesting looking at potential holes at Herstmonceux as the grounds are so expansive there we had 8 holes before we'd explored 1/3 of the grounds but mainly due to designing in restricted space.
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Re: Hole Design

Post by bruce » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:02 pm

Has anyone else just spent the last 2 hours reading all Houck's articles? :D

I agree that a good par 3 beats a bad par 4, but I'm a big fan of par 4 golf. Had a chat with Dan at the weekend and he says he much prefers the feeling of getting a 2 on a par 3 than a 3 on a par 4, but I just can't agree. I'm again with John Houck on this one, this article really spells out to me what it is I love about hole 3 at Essex, SBC at Croydon, 627 at QP: http://www.houckdesign.com/shotplease.html
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Re: Hole Design

Post by Del » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:33 pm

I like holes that have risk/reward and are aethetically pleasing. I agree with Bruce and John Houck that a good par 4 which doesn't overly favour long throwers can have more endurng appeal because your second shot will be somewhat different every time you play it. More important is that the course has balance and requires a good range of skills, so whilst it's great to have a hole that you could make 4 completely different shots on, you wouldn't want 18 of them because someone will just play their preferred type of shot on each hole.
Interestingly I quite disagree with some of Richard's choices. Hole 7 at Croydon is not a good hole IMHO, if you have a weak throw you will have a tough 2nd and 3rd shot. If you have a really big throw, risk and reward are on the same side of the scales, the OB is no danger and you can get an easy 3.
Hole 18 at Burnlaw doesn't do it for me either, I usually take the big hyzer and it's not inspiring to pile into long grass in a boggy area. If the wall by the tee was a bit lower, and the window over the 2nd wall was a bit bigger and/or the pond wasn't there it could be a great hole, but that's not what we've got. The willows planted by the pond will soon block out most of the route to the basket - this hole will only deteriorate unless action is taken.
On the positive side, Megabunny is great, it's just so much fun to see a disc fly that far, and it's beautifully framed, New Hypoteneuse likewise. To The Knoll is a fantastic hole for Pro players, there is good risk reward in deciding how far along the ridge to try and get, and reading the wind is crucial on both drive and approach, but harsh on anybody without a decent drive. I like Bowlings Hill, do you take a driver to try and get an easy up-shot, but if it fades out you can get in real trouble; or a roller - safe but probably short; or a mid range - safe but short; or forehand if you have one? Obviously simpler choices for a lefty!
At Croydon I like Tree Amigos - nicely framed and the challenge is set. 324 is good, as the 2nd shot will vary but will always be challenging. Sqeeky Bum Causeway has good risk reward. Stairway is not a classic, because it lacks obstacles around the green, but every course should have an elevated tee where you throw down for a possible 2, but with some risks too. Pennsylvania Avenue is a good hole - I've had a few 2's but also the odd 4, there's several different routes and it always has me pondering which one to try!
At QP my favourites are hole 1 (AlderWay) - requires accurate drive and accurate up-shot; Helen's Myre (old 5) because it's nicely framed by the hedge and you can go for the ace; Oblong Obleft (Black 7) because I love trying to get that reverse S flight and I'm always telling newcomers that this demonstrates just what is possible with these discs; River Ride (Black 8) can be an easy 2 or a tough 4 if you go astray; Blackdown The Hill (15) is nicely framed, quite reachable, but with a teacherous green and OB if you leave your drive too short or on the left side. Got to love the Nipple too!
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Re: Hole Design

Post by Tim » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:44 am

Some great comments so far, i read the Houck articles quite some time ago and they are a very good starting point, especially the view about knowing the lay of the land, but i don't think he goes far enough on that respect, because the land changes with the seasons, so you really need a longer term knowledge, what seems like a nice dry plot in spring turns out to be awful in Autumn etc plus we have all experienced life cycles for holes on established courses so a good understanding of the flora is much needed, some tree's will only grow so high but others will run away without management, so what was a perfectly designed hole a few years ago is now a bit of a turkey.

So we have lots of very good holes across the country but the amazing thing is that not one course has it all :( just some nice signature holes, so should signature holes dictate the rest of the course design or should we be looking a little more holistically...

I've heard that players much prefer a 2 on a par 3 than a 3 on a par 4, what are your views on par 2's, should we have them, is there a place? Hole 3 at Essex is a very good example of a complete par 4, as it does offer players of all skill levels the opportunity of an up and down in 3 if you get your first 2 drives perfectly and there are a few different approaches to the hole, and when you hit that 3, personally i feel it's a better feeling than hitting a 2 on a good par 3.

I think Rich is in the minority view of the next tee needs to be close to the green of the previous hole and that a short stroll isn't as bad as it's portrayed, a lot of our courses have these, which probably helps with flow of play in large tournaments at the courses and for casual play there is always the fun of having fun made up approaches to the next tee with mini's.

I'll see if there are any other views out there on this subject then summarise our views for easy consumption.

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Re: Hole Design

Post by Neil M » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:54 am

I don't have a problem with walking between holes. We have been discussing this with regards our potential new course in herstmonceux as the grounds are pretty big. We didn't really come to a conclusion but one thing we were considering was 2 9 holes with the option of joining them together. The thinking behind this is that newcomers can play either of the 9's and progress to playing all 18. I suppose a question is how far out of your way are you prepared to walk for an amazing hole?
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Re: Hole Design

Post by rhatton1 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:56 am

I've no problem with walking between holes, but think there should be an obvious way from basket to next tee, this isn't 'cause i'm lazy (even though I am). I would say going from 5 to tee of 6 now at Croydon would be difficult for anyone to find who wasn't being shown the course for example, you would automatically walk to Squeaky Bum. Borrowing from our larger cousin ball golf I can't think of any course I've played where I have had to walk back on myself or more than 200 meters to get to the next tee. (actually there is a local to Leamington course Newbold Comyn from 10th - 11th and I used to have to direct people there regularly as they got lost, you would have to cross another field and couldn't see the next tee so people got very confused) If you want the course to be easy to play by all (not just regulars) it has to be clear and that does involve a flow between holes (not necessarily short distances between holes). For example, Basket finishes at start to a path, you automatically walk down that path to find the next tee, even if that path winds for 100 meters before it gets there, you would assume that was where to go. (shrewsbury Mereside has a good example of this)

Signage itself doesn't tend to do it. Del has signs everywhere to show people playing the red course where to go, blue, orange etc. people seem incapable of reading them and you end up herding the lost sheep back on to the correct path.... This was just as bad when we only had two courses at QP. Never assume an ability to read in the general public!

Tim's point about knowing the course in different seasons is a very good one.

I like par 2's only one maybe on a course but they are much needed mental relief at times. i love getting to badgers for example at Burnlaw, playing the Blue course now at QP and getting to hole 4. Still easy to take 3's and even 4's on these holes, but its nice to run at the chains.

God can you imagine the course that had it all.....
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Re: Hole Design

Post by bruce » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:05 am

I guess it depends on what you are calling a par 2, I wouldn't call either of the holes Rich mentions par 2, but most of the QP short course would qualify. I certainly wouldn't want to see any of those holes on a Tour course. Generally speaking if you have a par 2 it seems likely you missed an opportunity to make that tee a landing zone on a par 4, or it's simply a filler hole like old hole 8 at Croydon pre-changes, and new hole 8 at Croydon, again pre-changes.

I think I've talked enough about par 4s though, so par 3s... I prefer that a par 3 has some sensible threat of a bogey, other than putting failures. Hole 2 at QP and hole 1 at Essex for example fail that litmus test IMO (for the Open division at least)
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Re: Hole Design

Post by West » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:59 am

The comment that stuck with me about course/hole design was when Bruce, Hatton, Mark, Tweed and myself went up to Bedworth to see how a course would work up there. Hatton/Tweed had already had a "plan" around the park but Bruce was looking at it from fresh and slightly different position and the comment was something like ...
Look at all the potential holes, not just 18, and then work out the flow using the best 18 available
... with that in mind we must have played 24+ holes around the park trying different things out. Some righty holes, some lefty holes (woop!), some either, some neither ( :wink: ) and I still think there is potential there for a course.

Anyway, coming back to topic ...

The one thing which won't change on a potential course site is the lie of the land. There will always be exceptions for instance if someone won the lottery, bought a few fields and landscaped them into a mini canyon so you have to use what you've got. From there you shape the course with trees etc. like how Del has done with QP, once you've designed the course. If on public ground the likeihood of being able to change much foliage etc. is limited so you need to work with what you've got. All parks (nearly) in the UK have been around for a very long time and have established trees etc. so use them :)

*sits back and watches the rest of the discussion unfold*
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