2013 rules revision

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2013 rules revision

Post by bruce » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:29 pm

I can now present the 2013 rules in html format:
http://conraddamon.com/pdga/2013/rules2013.html

A summary of the changes is here:
http://conraddamon.com/pdga/2013/rule-changes.txt
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:23 am

The changes all seem very sensible. What do they mean by the disc being the primary marker rather than the mini though? is this what you were tlaking about a couple of months ago?

i like that they have got rid off the self calling of stance violations, that always felt very open to misuse to me.

also that playing from the wrong disc has only gone down to a one shot penalty seems fairer, it's an easy mistake to make and was punished quite harshly previously
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by LostMeow » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:44 am

What was the advantage of 'self-calling' a stance violation?
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by bruce » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:55 am

You could miss a putt, step through deliberately and call a falling putt. If someone seconded, you got a free re-putt
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by LostMeow » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:17 am

Wait...you don't get a penalty stroke for a foot fault?!
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by Mark.A.D » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:32 am

i thought a falling putt only counted if the disc went in?
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by bruce » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:35 am

The outcome of the putt is irrelevant, and the first instance of a stance violation is a warning and a rethrow, no penalty.
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by Paul Holden » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:02 pm

Looks good. Thanks to everyone on the rules committee for their time and effort in preparing these.
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:09 pm

As it is with most/all? violations under the current rules, first instance is warning only and a retake of the shot, however under current rules the warning has to be given by at least two people or the majority of the group agrees on it ( ihave never been sure what happens if two people in the group call it ok and 2 say it was a violation?). Under next years rules warnings could be given by just one player but to actually have a penalty shot two players need to witness it.

The warning bit could be a bit open to abuse though. Theoretically if i'm reading this right you could call a footfault on someone everytime they throw a good shot and make them retake. (unless the rest of the group overrule you)

Also just read through one bit, how could this scenario ever happen? " For example, a throw that goes OB and then crosses
the wrong side of a mandatory is OB." Surely a disc is only OB when it finishes its flight, but would have to miss the mando mid flight so the mando will surely always trump the OB? And yes i will call you Shirley....

Nice to see the confirmation that carrying an Iphone won't mean you could technically be disqualified any more.

Also nice to see you can now delibereatly stop someones disc going in the river as long as the thrower is willing to take the penalty and has told you so.
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by LostMeow » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:04 pm

rhatton1 wrote:Also nice to see you can now delibereatly stop someones disc going in the river as long as the thrower is willing to take the penalty and has told you so.
The way I'm reading it, if you did that (stopped a disc going in a river/lake with the thrower's permission), the thrower would have to play the shot again from the previous lie - they wouldn't have the option of playing where the disc would have crossed into the hazard. Is that right?
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by bruce » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:04 pm

You wrong on both the Current and new rules :D

Currently it is: called within 3 seconds and seconded = warning and rethrow. Called within 3 seconds and seconded again in the same round = penalty and rethrow.

Some other violations do not require a warning (course abuse, moving obstacles, practice throw, interference), some do (marking), some do require a warning, but do not need to be seconded (courtesy). Only Stance requires a rethrow. Group decision is irrelevant.

The new rules: some require a warning, some don't, but in all cases a warning only needs one person, a second violation resulting in a penalty needs seconding. You could call everyone on your card for a foot fault on hole 1, any subsequent call needs seconding, you don't get unlimited warnings.

OB vs Mando, if you griplock on hole 2 at Croydon, your drive goes over the OB fence 2m in front of the tee and flies down the tram lines, landing OB, but beyond the mando. Where is your lie?
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:11 pm

ah i see. #

What does happen in this situation: ( ihave never been sure what happens if two people in the group call it ok and 2 say it was a violation?).
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by bruce » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:44 pm

As with any rules dispute, play a provisional and ask the TD.

Yes Tom, that's correct.
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by BOF » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:21 pm

804.03 G
Altering the course of a thrown disc with the consent of the thrower in order to prevent the disc from becoming lost is not punishable interference. Any disc whose course is altered for that reason is considered to be a lost disc.
Does this mean that the player cannot use that disc again during that hole? or that round? or ever again?
At what point does the 'saved from being lost' disc become 'found' again so that it can be used?
(If the answer is 'never' then there's no point stopping it being lost in the first place!)

Some clarification, please, rulesmeisters... it may be something that could happen at Del's, along the river...

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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by BOF » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:25 pm

OB vs Mando, if you griplock on hole 2 at Croydon, your drive goes over the OB fence 2m in front of the tee and flies down the tram lines, landing OB, but beyond the mando. Where is your lie?
To quote from the Rules Changes - http://conraddamon.com/pdga/2013/rule-changes.txt
Ties are broken by chronological order of the violations. For example, a throw that goes OB and then crosses the wrong side of a mandatory is OB.
So in your example, the player can re-tee with a one-stroke penalty or play from OB 2m in front of the tee with a one-stroke penalty - I hope that's correct...

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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by bruce » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:36 pm

It means in terms of how you play the lie. A disc declared lost after 3 minutes searching and then found as you trudge wearily down the fairway for the second time can be used for the remainder of the round.

You are correct on your OB analysis :)
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by LostMeow » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:37 pm

BOF wrote:Does this mean that the player cannot use that disc again during that hole? or that round? or ever again?
At what point does the 'saved from being lost' disc become 'found' again so that it can be used?
(If the answer is 'never' then there's no point stopping it being lost in the first place!)

Some clarification, please, rulesmeisters... it may be something that could happen at Del's, along the river...

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I'm no rulesmeister, but I would interpret it as meaning the disc has no 'lie' (or 'position', or whatever the new term is) and therefore that your only option is to rethrow (with penalty) from the previous lie. It does not mean that the disc is then out of play - having saved it from a watery grave you could throw it on that same shot again (from previous lie) (as long as you did so within the time limit), I guess.
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by LostMeow » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:43 pm

...actually, if someone did that along the first over-the-river hole at QP, where there is a dropzone for OB drives, would they get to go from the dropzone as the disc would be 'lost', not OB?
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by BOF » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:55 pm

...and finally, whilst the Rules' Book is open...

Is anyone going to be considering enforcing the 'Excessive Time' rule, 804.01, this season?

Please note the changes to the rules regarding excessive time and reporting violations...
Only one witness is required for a violation that results in a warning. Confirmation from a second person is required for a violation that results in a penalty throw.
The 30-second clock (excessive time) now starts when you reach your disc, rather than after you mark it, since a disc may not be marked. You can no longer stand over your disc holding your mini for an indefinite amount of time.
804.01 Excessive Time

A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:

The previous player has thrown; and,

The player has had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at the disc; and,

The playing area is clear and free of distractions.

A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round.
There have been some interesting debates in the past over the time taken by a number of players on the BDGA tour to make their throws.

The question is, is anyone actually going to bring this rule into play, or is it going to remain one of those unspoken issues that festers away on the BDGA circuit?

Does anyone actually care if people take longer than 30 seconds?

The bottom line is this, once you arrive at your disc and it's clear to throw, you have 30 seconds - that's it.

Within this 30 seconds you may need to carry out some, or even all (!), of the following:

place mini marker disc
remove thrown disc
adjust lie of several twigs that may impede your run-up
dry thrown disc (replace in bag - optional)
fold towel carefully
look at target/where you wish to aim
throw small handful of grass in air in front of you
watch grass fall to ground/blow away/land on fellow golfer's face/land on own face
select disc from bag
select alternative disc from bag
replace unwanted disc in bag
spit on fingers/disc/towel/bag
rub rim of disc vigorously
line up shoulders/elbows/pelvis/patella/sternum/coccyx/metatarsals with target
pretend to throw disc at target, several times, with increasing conviction
change disc for slightly more under/overstable model
(break wind - optional)
repeat several of the above
make throw


If completing all of this within 30 seconds is going to be a challenge to you - do it quicker or consider changing your routine.

Am I being a bit harsh?

BOF


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Last edited by BOF on Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2013 rules revision

Post by BOF » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:29 pm

...actually, if someone did that along the first over-the-river hole at QP, where there is a dropzone for OB drives, would they get to go from the dropzone as the disc would be 'lost', not OB?
Once again, I think the:
Ties are broken by chronological order of the violations. For example, a throw that goes OB and then crosses the wrong side of a mandatory is OB.
...situation applies. The disc landed OB before it was lost, so the OB penalty kicks comes first.

However, if someone stops your disc from rolling into the river (by prior arrangement), but does so on the in-bounds side of OB, then your disc was technically 'lost' before it crossed the OB line, so the 'lost disc' penalty applies before the OB penalty!

Oh, the joy of making up silly situations involving discs, hazards, loose twigs and open-toed footwear...

See you at QP!

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